[OPEN] "Mk 108 is weak" thread

[Kurfürst]

I think there is a problem with the videos showing single hits tearing planes apart. Can you guess? These are only the "best" videos they had, not every dogfight of ww2 was recorded on a video and of those that got recorded they probably threw away those that show planes not being destroyed.

 

You can bet there was a lot of situation where planes got hit by 50+ shots and still kept flying.

 

I would really like to place a sizable bet on this one, what are the odds? :D This picture below is the effect of a single MK 108 hit on Spitfire fuselage in a British firing test. if the MK 108 hit a fighter with the M-Geschoss, it was a one or at worst, two-hit affair unless some extrmeme luck factor kicked in, like grazing the wingtip..

Edited December 11, 2014 by Kurfürst

[NineLine]

while you may be right, lets say in reality just a third or fourth of those 30mm hit (I saw a lot of hits anyway), minengeschoss or HEI, taking that many rounds and still flying is absolutely ridiculous regardless of where they hit.

 

Do you have a screenshot of the damage after those hits by chance? I mean the AI damage is calculated differently than player damage it seems, so mostly hit point based, so you may not always see real world results... but from my experiences for the most part, the Mk 108 shreds everything...

[Aurora juutilainen]

Do you have a screenshot of the damage after those hits by chance?

 

No, I wasn't really expecting such a silly amount of hits needed at the time

 

I mean the AI damage is calculated differently than player damage it seems

 

I would have to agree :joystick:

[JST]

This is what mk108 damage on b17 looks like:

 

Not Mk 108, Flak!

 

Real Mk 108 damage below.

 

Spitfire wing direct astern:

 

 

Spitfire rear fuselage:

 

 

Me 163 gun camera, not very good quality but representative:

 

 

Maybe not the same B-17 as gun cam, since wing is still intact, but it says attacked by Me 163.... Although you can see something on the wing, and is deceptively similar to the bomber above..

 

Edited December 11, 2014 by JST

[otto]

 

About the pictures i respectfully report the folowing:

 

-The Ai plane flew on like nothing hapened.

-Its hard to find the track for this one because i saved so many.

-I wish the 30mm ammo would make big holes.

I mean i hit the cockpit dead on and the tail. There should be two craters :D .Destroyed cockpit,pilot, tail with a big hole in it.

 

I'm not going to be absurd and say that every shot i take at the Ai leaves it intact.

And i'm making such a big deal aut of this because for me damage modeling comes first in a combat simulation.

Edited December 11, 2014 by otto

[NineLine]

About the pictures i respectfully report the folowing:

 

-The Ai plane flew on like nothing hapened.

-Its hard to find the track for this one because i saved so many.

-I wish the 30mm ammo would make big holes.

I mean i hit the cockpit dead on and the tail. There should be two craters :D .Destroyed cockpit,pilot, tail with a big hole in it.

 

I'm not going to be absurd and say that every shot i take at the Ai leaves it intact.

 

Again, this goes back a lot to the visual damage model which needs work, right now if you scrap your wing along the runway enough and damage it, bullet holes will appear, they dont have different damage states for different weapons doing the damage.

[otto]

Again, this goes back a lot to the visual damage model which needs work, right now if you scrap your wing along the runway enough and damage it, bullet holes will appear, they dont have different damage states for different weapons doing the damage.

 

Ok thanks for your answer.

[gavagai]

I gave the Mk 108 a workout yesterday in multiplayer. It also required multiple cannon strikes to bring down human P-51s.

 

Anyway, I really hope this gets some adjustment in the future. Thanks.

[gavagai]

Any progress here? Anything to report at all? Is the Mk 108 always going to be so anemic?

 

In another multiplayer session today I would get 3-4 30mm hits on a P-51 and they're still going strong.

 

In one case there were at least two hits to the right wing, which only caused white vapor to stream from two separate places.

[NineLine]

Any progress here? Anything to report at all? Is the Mk 108 always going to be so anemic?

 

In another multiplayer session today I would get 3-4 30mm hits on a P-51 and they're still going strong.

 

In one case there were at least two hits to the right wing, which only caused white vapor to stream from two separate places.

 

And that means nothing as far as testing and reporting goes. How are you sure you got 3-4 30mm hits? Are you sure they were critical hits? Where did you hit the Mustang? Etc Etc...

 

Need tracks and data, its been shown that we are unsure if the debriefings are accurate, or what they actually show... ie one round passing through many hit boxes registering a number of hits...

 

The reason I ask for this, is most of my experiences with the Mk 108 is very positive. SO I need to see otherwise... but no gun/cannon is a guaranteed kill.

 

I was watching a show on Netflix the other day and a Japanese pilot talked about a mission he flew, when he returned they counted 78 hits, he doesnt know how he survived, especially when their plans were some of the least armored aircraft in WWII.

[gavagai]

Ok, how do I record in a multiplayer session? There is no "save track" button like there is in single player.

 

And that means nothing as far as testing and reporting goes. How are you sure you got 3-4 30mm hits? Are you sure they were critical hits? Where did you hit the Mustang? Etc Etc...

 

I watched the shells hit. That is how I know (pretty straight forward). And I already described that I saw where they hit.

 

there were at least two hits to the right wing, which only caused white vapor to stream from two separate places.

 

See?:smilewink:

 

I am a good shot and I know what is going on. Asking me if I know whether they were "critical hits" begs the question, sith.

[NineLine]

Multiplayer tracks are auto-magically saved in Saved Games/DCS/Tracks/Multiplayer

 

You guys complain about being able to spot aircraft in DCS, but can see your individual rounds hit, and where they hit? ;) And even so, you didnt say exactly where you hit him, we know the visual damage modelling needs work, so the fact that the vapor started flying might not indicate what was going on with your targets aircraft.

 

I can answer your question on them being critical hits... probably no if he was still flying. Did you by chance try and communicate with him, ask him how badly damaged he was?

 

I am not trying to be difficult, but I do know what is required to report a bug, hard proof, the ability to reproduce it, and a track (not hours long) that shows the bug if possible. I havent had much luck having troubles with the gun myself. I am not a perfect shot either.

 

Ok, how do I record in a multiplayer session? There is no "save track" button like there is in single player.

 

 

 

I watched the shells hit. That is how I know (pretty straight forward). And I already described that I saw where they hit.

 

 

 

See?:smilewink:

 

I am a good shot and I know what is going on. Asking me if I know whether they were "critical hits" begs the question, sith.

[Aurora juutilainen]

The great thing about the 108 and its mine shells is that it doesn't require a "critical hit" against a fighter, hitting it just about anywhere would cause catastrophic damage, take a look at the damage done to spitfires wings from 1 shell, the structure would be severely damaged, if it didn't immediately tear the wing off wind forces and G-stress would take care of the rest, meanwhile you can lob several 30's against the P51 in game and it will continue on until you hit the magic damage number to kill the engine or knock a wing off.

 

EDIT: here is a video and track file showing SEVERAL hits on 1 wing with 30mm's

npiy0CiNYGQ

client-20150101-192309.trk

Edited January 2, 2015 by Aurora juutilainen

[otto]

The great thing about the 108 and its mine shells is that it doesn't require a "critical hit" against a fighter, hitting it just about anywhere would cause catastrophic damage, take a look at the damage done to spitfires wings from 1 shell, the structure would be severely damaged, if it didn't immediately tear the wing off wind forces and G-stress would take care of the rest, meanwhile you can lob several 30's against the P51 in game and it will continue on until you hit the magic damage number to kill the engine or knock a wing off.

 

That's exactly what i think.

A hit in the wing, fuselage should at least compromise the wing , fuselage structurally and aerodynamically (so when g is pulled it should brake off easier).

 

 

Tacview estimates the number of hits to be exactly half the number shown at debrief screen.So i hit the p51 7 times with 108 shells. I can't show you the track because it didn't record exactly what happend. This happens sometimes.

 

@SITHSPAWN

 

How can you say the 108 seems fine to you ?

Show me a fighter plane that was hit 7 times by 108 shells and flies like nothing happend.

[NineLine]

The great thing about the 108 and its mine shells is that it doesn't require a "critical hit" against a fighter, hitting it just about anywhere would cause catastrophic damage, take a look at the damage done to spitfires wings from 1 shell, the structure would be severely damaged, if it didn't immediately tear the wing off wind forces and G-stress would take care of the rest, meanwhile you can lob several 30's against the P51 in game and it will continue on until you hit the magic damage number to kill the engine or knock a wing off.

 

But it wasnt a guaranteed kill, otherwise the 109's would have been unstoppable, and the world would be a different place... There are many accounts of aircraft taking severe damage and landing to tell about it, I would also bet a few planes were ditched when they might have been flyable by our sim minds standards, we tend to try flying when we shuold probably bail, this goes doubly for the AI... if there is any chance their robot brains can keep flying they do....

[NineLine]

@SITHSPAWN

 

How can you say the 108 seems fine to you ?

Show me a fighter plane that was hit 7 times by 108 shells and flies like nothing happend.

 

Show me a track where the aircraft was hit seven times by 108 shells.... I never said an aircraft should take that much damage and survive... not a Stang anyways, so dont get all bent out of shape.

[mason1911]

wing hits

 

But it wasnt a guaranteed kill, otherwise the 109's would have been unstoppable, and the world would be a different place... There are many accounts of aircraft taking severe damage and landing to tell about it, I would also bet a few planes were ditched when they might have been flyable by our sim minds standards, we tend to try flying when we shuold probably bail, this goes doubly for the AI... if there is any chance their robot brains can keep flying they do....

 

Ok, so this does not answer the question. It clearly took too many 108 rounds to drop the 51. I would agree there should not be a 1 hit 1 kill scenario every time. But there is no denying the current modeling is not near close enough to be accurate. You asked for proof and there it is. You will also note the wing does not show any damage at all till it comes off.

Edited January 2, 2015 by mason1911

[Aurora juutilainen]

Show me a track where the aircraft was hit seven times by 108 shells.... I never said an aircraft should take that much damage and survive... not a Stang anyways, so dont get all bent out of shape.

 

go to my previous post, has both a quick track and video

[NineLine]

ok, spent the last little while shooting P-51s... MOST of the time it was 1-3 hits at the Stang fell to pieces, although I did see some oddities I have not noticed before, but I think its less to do with the Mk 108 and more with the damage model, for example... hits to the inside of the wing showed damage in the nose cone, as well I found some more stuff to add to my briefing bug report as well.

 

Sorry AJ, I didnt look at your track, but I ran about 20 flights pumping cannon shells into the P-51, I think I have plenty now ;)

[otto]

Show me a track where the aircraft was hit seven times by 108 shells.... I never said an aircraft should take that much damage and survive... not a Stang anyways, so dont get all bent out of shape.

 

Here is track that goes with the pic posted in my previous post.After 7 hits no problem.The number of hits in Tacview is always half the number we see in debrief.

It's a 1.2.14.35513 version so i had to reverd because i wasn't showing what really happened in latest version of DCS.

 

 

This is a 30mm hit of the wingtip region. Not even this region is broken off or even compromised structuraly.

 

 

Look at the pics below how the tracer hits the p51.

And you can't even tell if you hit with the m-geschoss shells.

In WW2 gun cam footage you can clearly see the hits.

 

 

What the hell is this ? No tracers.No way to tell if you hit of not. Thank god we have moders.

 

7-108-hits-1.2.14.35513.trk

Edited January 2, 2015 by otto

[NineLine]

 

 

What the hell is this ? No tracers.No way to tell if you hit of not. Thank god we have moders.

 

You know the aircraft is still in beta for one thing, also what color were the tracers on the cannon, was there tracers on the cannon? I always thought the used the guns for tracking where they were shooting and that cannon shells didnt have tracers, but I could be wrong... I could be thinking of something else.

 

The moder comment makes me just want to ignore anything else you post....

[otto]

@SITHSPAWN please accept my apology. I'm have a choleric personality :D.

 

 

But my bigest problem is you can't tell if you get hits with the 108.On ww2 guncam footage you can see a puff of smoke. As far as i can tell only the HEI make a flash.With the m-geschoss there is no sign of a hit.

 

 

You can see on the track the action was a lot faster and at first i thought i missed.But then i changed view on the p51 and i saw the damage.

luft_5-2.trk

Edited January 2, 2015 by otto

[Echo38]

I can't comment on the accuracy of the effects in the sim, but do note that the oft-posted picture of the British fire test was an example of the "perfect hit," which is the exception and not the norm. Perusing gun camera footage indicates that one-hit kills were extremely rare. In fact, out of all of the hours of gun camera footage that I've seen, the only one-hit kills I've seen were either due to the detonation of a cannon's ammunition magazine, or the strike was on a Japanese light fighter such as the Oscar, which had relatively weak construction.

 

Note that the horizontal stabilizer of the B-17 in the picture wasn't blown clean off, as some suggest should happen to the average fighter's wing upon getting hit with a single round. The average fighter's wing was not flimsy even compared to a B-17's horizontal stabilizer. The P-51, for example, was on the sturdy side, structurally, and I wouldn't expect its wing to fall off easier than a B-17's stabilizer (although, in a hard turn of the sort a fighter makes and a bomber doesn't, the G forces can, of course, have a catastrophic effect on the damaged wing, which a bomber wouldn't normally have a problem with, due to lower G-forces).

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

When firing really close ( 200 yd or bellow ) from the target, the 108 really does it's job, like I could tell after disintegrating a p51d ahead of me on last nights MP session :)

[arthuro12]

You know the aircraft is still in beta for one thing, also what color were the tracers on the cannon, was there tracers on the cannon? I always thought the used the guns for tracking where they were shooting and that cannon shells didnt have tracers, but I could be wrong... I could be thinking of something else.

 

Also with Edge around the corner, I'm pretty sure adding better effects is on their to-do list.

 

About the cannon rounds not having tracers, I'm 99% sure most of the pilots would chose to leave them out because of the low amount of ammo available for cannons.

At high altitudes (when engaging bomber groups for example) the red hot rounds will trail vapour anyway.