Impossible to taxi!

[Captain Chuck]

On 12/5/2014 at 10:31 AM, Hadwell said:

lock the tail wheel to go streight, unlock it to turn. learn that the brakes aren't just on/off, they need to be feathered.

Feathered so that's it?

We don't all have the ability to feather the brakes when we map the controls.

Most DCS pilots don't use a pedal rudder control and in addition some people have leg problems and injuries. Some people don't have both legs. Some people I know don't have a kneecap because the Vietcong blew it off. There are all kinds of reasons people don't have Rudder Pedals. So they use a twiststck or a paddle on the throttle, like me. So in these cases the brakes have to be mapped somewhere else. It makes the 109 unflyable sometimes. Not all the time. But one wrong move when starting out on the taxiway and it's a nigh mare that can't be fixed. If the tailwheel gives you a problem you may as well just respawn right away and hope it doesn't happen again or you'll spend an hour spinning on the runway until you hit something and blow up. There should be an update with option on the 109 for a slightly more forgiving tail wheel. 

PS: Same for the P-51 since the brakes were ruined after this last update. 

Edited April 21, 2024 by Captain Chuck

[LeCuvier]

17 minutes ago, Captain Chuck said:

Not true. Maybe for YOU! There is something wrong with the modelling of this. It needs to be simplified for the cyber-world because it's not this hard in the real world to get the knack of it. On a PC you don't have the help of for 5 senses. 

That's your subjective assessment. I find it much easier to taxi than the Spit or the Mosquito with their strange combined pedal & brake method. If I flew those aircraft frequently, I would probable find them just as easy to taxi.

[Captain Chuck]

4 minutes ago, LeCuvier said:

That's your subjective assessment. I find it much easier to taxi than the Spit or the Mosquito with their strange combined pedal & brake method. If I flew those aircraft frequently, I would probable find them just as easy to taxi.

I fly all the warbirds except Mosquito frequently and the 109 is the only problem - except after this last update when they changed the P-51 they ruined the brakes for those of us who can't feather the brake controls. Now it tips over almost immediately after touching them no matter how slow you go....... so it is now VERY difficult to steer. 

[LeCuvier]

1 minute ago, Captain Chuck said:

... those of us who can't feather the brake controls. Now it tips over almost immediately after touching them no matter how slow you go....... so it is now VERY difficult to steer. 

If you don't have analog brake pedals that might be a totally different ballgame. I have no experience with that.

[Captain Chuck]

13 minutes ago, LeCuvier said:

If you don't have analog brake pedals that might be a totally different ballgame. I have no experience with that.

Yeah... I think that maybe what it is and I'm gonna work on this some more and experiment with settings. The weird thing is-  not every time is the Bf-109 a problem. Usually I have no problems but sometimes it just goes so haywire that I can't get the tail wheel straight and I may as well choose another plane.

[Dragon1-1]

Sadly, without analog brakes the warbirds are going to be very difficult to work with, due to physics of their landing gear. IRL, in a taildragger you almost never give it full brake unless you're at standstill and want to hold it down. With proper toe brakes, the 109 is hard enough to taxi, but it's doable (and it's actually easier than Spitfire). In your situation, the Spit is probably going to be a better choice because it has a hand-operated brake lever on the stick.

[grafspee]

On 4/21/2024 at 11:34 PM, Captain Chuck said:

Feathered so that's it?

We don't all have the ability to feather the brakes when we map the controls.

Most DCS pilots don't use a pedal rudder control and in addition some people have leg problems and injuries. Some people don't have both legs. Some people I know don't have a kneecap because the Vietcong blew it off. There are all kinds of reasons people don't have Rudder Pedals. So they use a twiststck or a paddle on the throttle, like me. So in these cases the brakes have to be mapped somewhere else. It makes the 109 unflyable sometimes. Not all the time. But one wrong move when starting out on the taxiway and it's a nigh mare that can't be fixed. If the tailwheel gives you a problem you may as well just respawn right away and hope it doesn't happen again or you'll spend an hour spinning on the runway until you hit something and blow up. There should be an update with option on the 109 for a slightly more forgiving tail wheel. 

PS: Same for the P-51 since the brakes were ruined after this last update. 

 

I could add that some ppl don't have hands too and they don't use joysticks.

Maybe some more forgiving FM for them too ?

[SharpeXB]

These films are great. The best advice in this one on taxiing is “as soon as you start a turn, start stopping it”

 

[Captain Chuck]

13 hours ago, grafspee said:

I could add that some ppl don't have hands too and they don't use joysticks.

Maybe some more forgiving FM for them too ?

You could add that but it wouldn't mean anything.

On 4/22/2024 at 1:39 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Sadly, without analog brakes the warbirds are going to be very difficult to work with, due to physics of their landing gear. IRL, in a taildragger you almost never give it full brake unless you're at standstill and want to hold it down. With proper toe brakes, the 109 is hard enough to taxi, but it's doable (and it's actually easier than Spitfire). In your situation, the Spit is probably going to be a better choice because it has a hand-operated brake lever on the stick.

I have them (all the 6 of my warbirds that is)  all figured now. Did some remapping. The Spitfire is the easiest btw.  I can get by on P51..... but it was better before they 'fixed' it. No problems with German aircraft. 

[Rex]

On 4/21/2024 at 2:34 PM, Captain Chuck said:

Most DCS pilots don't use a pedal rudder control

 

I was not aware of this, I honestly thought everyone had rudder pedals, as most of the aircraft and helicopters are patently unflyable without them.  And since they are simulators, I figured they were necessary.  I had not thought of the injuries that you spoke of.   I guess that would call for somewhat creative solutions.  Can you map the twist grip, so that when you twist it while pressing the SHIFT key, it instead operates the wheel brakes?

 

I completely agree with you that it would be impossible to taxi the Kurfurst without pedals.  I fly it every day, and have gotten decent with ground control, but if you took away my pedals, I'd be unable to do anything.  So it's not anything that you're doing wrong, you're just trying to do the impossible.  It would be possible if you could figure out some alternative, but the alternative must be analog, and not on/off.

Edited August 16, 2024 by Rex

[Rex]

On 5/13/2024 at 12:39 AM, grafspee said:

I could add that some ppl don't have hands too and they don't use joysticks.

Maybe some more forgiving FM for them too ?

Is empathy that hard to come by?  I don't think it's that hard to understand the man's frustration.  I don't think people recognize how integral pedals are to taildraggers, and if you're used to using a twist-stick to compensate, it must be very frustrating as the Kurfürst uses differential braking and not the rudders per-se.  I'm sure that's taken a lot of people off-guard, but if you have a disability, it's gotta be frustrating as hell.

[TKhaos]

1 hour ago, Rex said:

I was not aware of this, I honestly thought everyone had rudder pedals, as most of the aircraft and helicopters are patently unflyable without them.

I've not had rudder pedals for 3 years and have absolutely no issues flying aircraft or helicopters. I can fly just as well using my Thrustmaster T.16000M HOTAS as I could with the pedals, I use the paddles on the throttle for rudder control as it's much easier than trying to use the Z axis on the joystick.

I mainly fly the Spitfire and P-51/TF-51 so only really got experience of them but I don't have any issues with them.

The Spitfire for example, when I take off with that I apply a tiny bit of pressure to the brakes using gradual wheel braking, I never try using the brakes on/off function or feathering them. I just tap the brake pressure, which I got bound to my throttle and takes it up maybe 5% then I increase throttle to about 1.5k to get it rolling, up to around 2k then when I've picked up speed I will increase to around 2.5k.

With the brakes on slightly I get good rudder control, plus on some aircraft you can lock the tailwheel with the stick by pulling it back and unlock pushing forward. I'm not sure if the BF-109 has gradual braking as I don't own it or the status of the tailwheel lock but pretty sure I could get it off the ground without pedals and using my setup, been known to fly with just a mouse and keyboard before

I've watched friends repeatable make mistakes with take off. Some just slam the throttle open to maximum, others lock tailwheels while they are turning so it locks at an angle, it's like trying to take off in a shopping trolley.

Have a look on Chuck's Guides, some real good info on there with all the DCS aircraft and each has sections on taming tail draggers and take off.

https://chucksguides.com/aircraft/dcs

 

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by TKhaos

[grafspee]

15 hours ago, TKhaos said:

I've not had rudder pedals for 3 years and have absolutely no issues flying aircraft or helicopters. I can fly just as well using my Thrustmaster T.16000M HOTAS as I could with the pedals, I use the paddles on the throttle for rudder control as it's much easier than trying to use the Z axis on the joystick.

I mainly fly the Spitfire and P-51/TF-51 so only really got experience of them but I don't have any issues with them.

The Spitfire for example, when I take off with that I apply a tiny bit of pressure to the brakes using gradual wheel braking, I never try using the brakes on/off function or feathering them. I just tap the brake pressure, which I got bound to my throttle and takes it up maybe 5% then I increase throttle to about 1.5k to get it rolling, up to around 2k then when I've picked up speed I will increase to around 2.5k.

With the brakes on slightly I get good rudder control, plus on some aircraft you can lock the tailwheel with the stick by pulling it back and unlock pushing forward. I'm not sure if the BF-109 has gradual braking as I don't own it or the status of the tailwheel lock but pretty sure I could get it off the ground without pedals and using my setup, been known to fly with just a mouse and keyboard before

I've watched friends repeatable make mistakes with take off. Some just slam the throttle open to maximum, others lock tailwheels while they are turning so it locks at an angle, it's like trying to take off in a shopping trolley.

Have a look on Chuck's Guides, some real good info on there with all the DCS aircraft and each has sections on taming tail draggers and take off.

https://chucksguides.com/aircraft/dcs

 

 

 

Yeah, I had T1600m Hotas too and used same technic. With rudder pedals you can do it like real pilot but there are ways to do w/o rudder pedals.

[grafspee]

On 8/17/2024 at 1:44 AM, Rex said:

Is empathy that hard to come by?  I don't think it's that hard to understand the man's frustration.  I don't think people recognize how integral pedals are to taildraggers, and if you're used to using a twist-stick to compensate, it must be very frustrating as the Kurfürst uses differential braking and not the rudders per-se.  I'm sure that's taken a lot of people off-guard, but if you have a disability, it's gotta be frustrating as hell.

It does not matter to me if someone have hard time learning planes in DCS. Empathy has nothing to do with it.  I had to learn too. Not everyone has that skill to learn quickly, for some it may take 5min and for another one it may take a year but this is not the reason to demand "FM to be more forgiving" i don't know what does it even mean. If someone has trouble there is option in special tab like take off assistant with that turned on you can take off w/o touching rudder at all. If it is frustrating for someone i advise to take a small brake and come back later, no reason to get mad about game.

Edited August 18, 2024 by grafspee

[Rex]

On 8/18/2024 at 3:54 AM, grafspee said:

It does not matter to me if someone have hard time learning planes in DCS. Empathy has nothing to do with it.  I had to learn too. Not everyone has that skill to learn quickly, for some it may take 5min and for another one it may take a year but this is not the reason to demand "FM to be more forgiving" i don't know what does it even mean. If someone has trouble there is option in special tab like take off assistant with that turned on you can take off w/o touching rudder at all. If it is frustrating for someone i advise to take a small brake and come back later, no reason to get mad about game.

 

 

Indeed, if he had any sense, he'd save the anger for the forums of the game that he has no reason to get mad about.  You have to forgive the flawed people, they haven't mastered this perfectly-directed-anger thing to the degree that you have.  It clearly bothers you to see people get frustrated over things that don't bother you, which is much more legitimate than letting a game bother you.  I mean it must be, since you do it.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2024 by Rex

[grafspee]

2 hours ago, Rex said:

 

Indeed, if he had any sense, he'd save the anger for the forums of the game that he has no reason to get mad about.  You have to forgive the flawed people, they haven't mastered this perfectly-directed-anger thing to the degree that you have.  It clearly bothers you to see people get frustrated over things that don't bother you, which is much more legitimate than letting a game bother you.  I mean it must be, since you do it.

 

 

 

For me only reason to change FM is to proof that present FM is not accurate, not because someone has trouble learning it. It completely don't bothers me at all.  There is very slim chance that ED will change FM because someone don't have patience to learn how to taxi or take off. But it is not a crime to say that i am against it, to justify changes based on that.   

And i can see that you already took moderator position and you moderating what can be said and what can not be said in topic already.  

[jcommdcs]

On 4/21/2024 at 10:34 PM, Captain Chuck said:

Feathered so that's it?

We don't all have the ability to feather the brakes when we map the controls.

Most DCS pilots don't use a pedal rudder control and in addition some people have leg problems and injuries. Some people don't have both legs. Some people I know don't have a kneecap because the Vietcong blew it off. There are all kinds of reasons people don't have Rudder Pedals. So they use a twiststck or a paddle on the throttle, like me. So in these cases the brakes have to be mapped somewhere else. It makes the 109 unflyable sometimes. Not all the time. But one wrong move when starting out on the taxiway and it's a nigh mare that can't be fixed. If the tailwheel gives you a problem you may as well just respawn right away and hope it doesn't happen again or you'll spend an hour spinning on the runway until you hit something and blow up. There should be an update with option on the 109 for a slightly more forgiving tail wheel. 

PS: Same for the P-51 since the brakes were ruined after this last update. 

 

 

[LeCuvier]

Some people posted a similar issue for the P-51, and I provided a solution for a wheelbrake command ON/OFF with pressure reduced to 50% (could be anything else).
If that's of interest I can post the equivalent for the Kurfürst

[SharpeXB]

On 8/16/2024 at 6:37 PM, Rex said:

I completely agree with you that it would be impossible to taxi the Kurfurst without pedals.

For the longest time in flight sims I had the zoom view bound to my right toe brake and used HOTAS buttons for the R and L brakes. Seems awkward but having an easy hands free zoom view axis is much more useful than brakes you only use for a moment on the ground. I did finally acquiesce to using my toe brake axes for their intended purpose but it actually took some getting used to.

[Rex]

On 9/1/2024 at 12:12 AM, grafspee said:

For me only reason to change FM is to proof that present FM is not accurate, not because someone has trouble learning it. It completely don't bothers me at all.  There is very slim chance that ED will change FM because someone don't have patience to learn how to taxi or take off. But it is not a crime to say that i am against it, to justify changes based on that.   

 

 I don't think he's asking for them to change the flight model.  I think he's expressing his difficulty with the controls.  Honestly, I'm not sure I'd advocate changing anything from EDs point of view, but if someone is struggling,  I'm not going to <profanity> on them for expressing their difficulties.  

 

Quote

And i can see that you already took moderator position and you moderating what can be said and what can not be said in topic already.  

 

I know the individual words in this sentence, but I don't fully understand the complete sentence.   I THINK you're saying that I am a moderator and I am censoring you?   If that is what you are saying then you are incorrect.  I have no moderator permissions whatsoever in the DCS Forums.  Frankly I'm not even sure how you came to this conclusion.  I'm just a regular user, and relative to most of these other guys, I'm one of the newer members. In addition, I have never reported anyone or asked a moderator to moderate anyone.  On any forum anywhere.  I may not agree with you about everything, but I appreciate your point of view and would not do anything to limit it.

[Rex]

On 9/4/2024 at 11:34 AM, SharpeXB said:

For the longest time in flight sims I had the zoom view bound to my right toe brake and used HOTAS buttons for the R and L brakes. Seems awkward but having an easy hands free zoom view axis is much more useful than brakes you only use for a moment on the ground. I did finally acquiesce to using my toe brake axes for their intended purpose but it actually took some getting used to.

Yeah, I see what you mean.  And wow, it's impressive that you got away with the buttons for so long.  I think, I did for like my first week.  Honestly, it may be possible for the jets.  I think you could got away with buttons for the F/A-18 maybe, assuming you don't use the rudder that much.    

In the case of the Kurfurst, I think you'd have to have analog control for the toe brakes because I'm modulating them until I'm airborne, and sometimes have both activated to some degree at the same time... 40% right, 10% left, or what have you and I subtly modulate them back and forth ... almost like stick movement during AA refueling.  I don't really pay attention anymore.  It's like walking, you just do it second nature without thinking now, but my hat definitely is off to anyone who can button-steer the 109.  

In fact, I think they should put "Requires Pedals" on the "Requirements" list for the plane so people realize how critical they are.  Unless you trim out the plane in the main screen settings, you also need to ride the rudder a bit to keep the plane level (there's no in-plane aileron or rudder trim), so I work the pedals even once airborne.  You could possibly get away with something like a twist-grip for rudder, though.

After solely flying jets for a long time, I learned that I absolutely positively need two things to fly warbirds:

1) Good pedals

2) Force feedback stick

Without #2 I couldn't fly piston planes.  I pulled into a stall every single time, and I just abandon trying.  Force-Feedback really opened up the genre for me.  When I can feel that first hint of buffet, I know exactly how to make it do what I need. Without that feel, it's a completely different endeavor.

It probably doesn't speak much for my skill that I am so inflexible and need relatively expensive gear just to get off the ground, but unfortunately, it's true.  I need dedicated hardware controls for everything (I even have hardware MFDs) and as much tactile feedback as I can get or I'm useless.

Oh who am I kidding ... I'm useless with them.  Just slightly less so with the gear.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Rex

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Rex said:

I think you could got away with buttons for the F/A-18 maybe, assuming you don't use the rudder that much.

Jets don’t really need R and L brakes at all (in a game) for those I just had the left toe brake assigned as a mono axis. 

3 hours ago, Rex said:

In the case of the Kurfurst, I think you'd have to have analog control for the toe brakes because I'm modulating them until I'm airborne, and sometimes have both activated to some degree at the same time... 40% right, 10% left, or what have you and I subtly modulate them back and forth ... almost like stick movement during AA refueling.  I don't really pay attention anymore.  It's like walking, you just do it second nature without thinking now, but my hat definitely is off to anyone who can button-steer the 109.

You just need to tap them quickly, with practice you can taxi adequately. Like driving a vehicle in an FPS game using a keyboard. 

3 hours ago, Rex said:

In fact, I think they should put "Requires Pedals" on the "Requirements" list for the plane so people realize how critical they are.

You need a Yaw axis but it could also be a twist stick. Pedals are a bit better but not mandatory. The first time I got pedals I had to learn all over again too. 

3 hours ago, Rex said:

After solely flying jets for a long time, I learned that I absolutely positively need two things to fly warbirds:

1) Good pedals

2) Force feedback stick

“Good” ie expensive pedals look nice and feel good but I don’t know that they're so beneficial. Precise input is only so important for something you control with your feet. It’s interesting to see FFB making a comeback. It’s been nearly extinct for a very long time. 

[grafspee]

I remember when i switched from twist joistick to rudder pedals, i had to learn all overvagain. It took me some time to learn my legs to do same thing what my hands could do. But this notice should be included that for some modules rudder axis is required.  Use of toe brakes with tap technique is definitely chalanging thing to do especially during initial phase of take off when you need to tap brakes to keep plane rolling straight.

 

But if someone is trying for hours with no effect i can see only one solution.

It is called "air start".

But i can't see the taxing to be so much fundamental problem here, in K4 you point nose in direction where you want to go by pressing left or righ brake then engaged tail wheel lock and tap brakes again to align wheel with fuselage so lock mechanism can egage. Lets hope that after this ground physics implementation and after refining it, planes will be less sticky to the ground.

Edited September 17, 2024 by grafspee