Jamming Capabilities-EF-111/EA-6B/F/A-18G Type Aircraft

[Gargoil]

A slightly offtopic question: what would happen if for example, one would upload here all the technical details, manuals etc. of the EA-18G? Like all the top secret stuff

[Firehead]

A slightly offtopic question: what would happen if for example, one would upload here all the technical details, manuals etc. of the EA-18G? Like all the top secret stuff

 

If someone happened to have information like that and then release it, they would probably go to federal prison for releasing top secret information.

 

You guys may not like hearing this "its top secret" stuff, but there is a reason. A lot of the current technologies on the market that protect both pilots and troops have a lot in common. If the information were to become available, the enemy will figure out how to work around it. They already have ways of working around it in some cases, but it is a primitive work around usually.

 

Your hunger for information that doesn't need to be known can get people killed. Ever heard loose lips sink ships? It is true. There is a reason why they don't tell you that stuff. Why do you need super realistic modelling of such a system. The "arcade" implementation will suffice in 99.9% of the cases that you will need this kind of stuff.

 

Would you put up your address on the internet for everyone to find? I'm talking you specifically, not "but you can google map it". I'm talking they know who YOU are. Where YOU live. Where You work. Specifics about YOU, nobody else. How about you tell me what time you're at work so I know when and where to rob YOUR house? Would you? Didn't think so.

[Gargoil]

So if ED would use those documents in the game, the game would be banned in the US and everyone (in the US) installing it would be arrested?

[Firehead]

So if ED would use those documents in the game, the game would be banned in the US and everyone (in the US) installing it would be arrested?

 

Yep, that is exactly what would happen :glare:

 

The person who released it and is Discovered, who also happens to be a US citizen can get in trouble. Chances are, if they have the knowledge and the documentation, they have signed a non-disclosure agreement or something along those lines. We all know who Edward Snowden is. Granted, it isn't on such a scale, but the concept is the same.

[PFunk1606688187]

Ever heard loose lips sink ships? It is true.

 

Actually that phrase originated as a propaganda slogan during the first months of the United States entering WW2 and was basically a public relations cover for the extraordinary incompetence the US Navy showed in addressing the U-boat threat that ended up sinking an extremely high volume of shipping on the American Eastern seaboard. The irony is that loose lips sank no ships. There is no evidence suggesting intelligence derived from American sources aided U-boats in any way during that period. The Germans needed no help at that time.

 

But that doesn't change how significant restricted info is.

[SDsc0rch]

the things that need to be classified, are classified

 

and they're not even talked about

 

you have no idea about them

 

there are systems that existed in WWII that still aren't discussed

 

 

but there are things that ARE known, and we should be able to make a "best guess" about them

 

ie.. missiles

 

 

we have a "pretty good" idea and understanding about their operation and functioning - all i'm asking for is a "pretty good" representation of their real-world performance

 

we do not have that with missiles at this point

 

 

now, the *specifics* of the equipment, sure.. that needs to be under wraps

 

and it is

 

 

but i think ppl get wound around the axle too tight about a lot of things that are military - i think it enhances the "gee charlie whiz bang" factor - and the "ooh, i know this, so i'm important" factor

 

but if there's decent open-source, publicly available information out there (and there is a lot - i keep getting more and more surprised the longer i'm part of this community)....... c'mon!

[GGTharos]

ED probably won't use such documents. They're more interested in being able to do business with the party they were stolen from.

 

It's also very unlikely that anyone has their hands on (shareable) documents or information that ED doesn't already have. And if you found it on the net or wikileaks, or got it from a friend, it's not particularly secret.

 

So if ED would use those documents in the game, the game would be banned in the US and everyone (in the US) installing it would be arrested?

Edited January 28, 2015 by GGTharos

[BitMaster]

....... They're more interested in being able to do business with the party they were stolen from....

 

 

Good one, but very true !

 

 

Bridge the gap somewhere in DCS 2.x and just make it somewhat "usable"

 

 

Bit

[fltsimbuff]

Yep, that is exactly what would happen :glare:

 

The person who released it and is Discovered, who also happens to be a US citizen can get in trouble. Chances are, if they have the knowledge and the documentation, they have signed a non-disclosure agreement or something along those lines. We all know who Edward Snowden is. Granted, it isn't on such a scale, but the concept is the same.

 

 

I am not sure it would make much sense to go after anyone installing it. These things are kept secret to keep out of the hands of other nations. I don't think Uncle Sam would care about Joe from California having a copy, if every Iranian military expert and tech guy has it anyway. Once foreign powers have it, there's no point to keeping it a secret domestically. This isn't necessarily true for all secrets, but certainly is for things like EW equipment.

 

Then again, government actions don't always make sense.

[PFunk1606688187]

This is all academic. You don't need super secret documents to create a model for EW. Physics is physics. The only thing thats secret is the absolute capabilities of real systems, their interactions with one another, and the specific details like actual frequencies and all that. The actual methods used in things such as countermeasures or seeker head tracking, and the physical laws that go with them, are not secret themselves. Its based on math and that can't be kept secret.

 

There's more than enough info to make a reasonable model of it, you'll just never be able to make it absolutely realistic to a degree where it mimics real life systems without that documentation, but then again so much of DCS isn't realistic anyway, even with relevant information declassified. We don't care do we? Air to ground ordnance is far from realistic but we use it anyway.

 

Mk82s don't have their real fuzing options. We don't have fragmentation effects. The accuracy of Mk82AIRs is iffy. Etc. We know more about that specific weapon than we do about specific EW devices but we can play our little sim games with them anyway.

 

Secret documents are overrated.

 

The Infrared & Electro-Optical Systems Handbook. Countermeasure Systems, Volume 7

Edited January 28, 2015 by P*Funk

[59th_LeFty]

The problem is, most players DCS is sold out to, are not aware of what abbreviations EPM, ECCM, RGPO and such black magic even means. People with knowledge on that would quickly earn legendary stats on servers making the whole game unbalanced even more. Also I'm afraid detailed EW could make exploits to the game, just think of an AI jamming device, or macroing. A noise jammer can ruin a server quite easily. I bet someone will happily point out that "oh yes, thats the point" but no thanks, we don't need Growlers in da haus.

Edited January 29, 2015 by 59th_LeFty

[GGTharos]

So is creating a model for EW. After all, DCS already has an EW model. It might not be great, but it's there.

 

This is all academic.

[GGTharos]

Neither is a huge issue, as in, it can be dealt with/prevented - in code. Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about, and the answer to it is fairly simple:

 

A properly modeled ECM suite won't do anything extra when you attempt to macro it on/off, or toggle other capabilities.

 

But again, the caveat is that it must be well modeled as a device.

 

Also I'm afraid detailed EW could make exploits to the game, just think of an AI jamming device, or macroing.

[PFunk1606688187]

The problem is, most players DCS is sold out to, are not aware of what abbreviations EPM, ECCM, RGPO and such black magic even means. People with knowledge on that would quickly earn legendary stats on servers making the whole game unbalanced even more.

 

Are you actually suggesting that they compromise the realism of the sim in order to handicap people who don't know how to use it? :huh:

[VZ_342]

I wonder if it'd be possible to have an "instruction" within a mission's internal lua's etc that would create a circle-shaped "effect area", centered on the jamming unit (maybe with concentric rings, each representing a reduction of missile effectiveness).

Max radius would equal something like 1/2 of a missile's max range (I don't know which missile would be a good choice for this), and have a -10% effect on hit probability. (And/or a -10% reduction of weapons damage). Longer distance to jammer = more likely the missile will hit the target (assuming target is also at/near outer ring)

Next circle would be 25% missiles max range (measured from the jammer aircraft), with an increase of effects to -50% (making it harder to hit the target).

Last, most inner circle, would be at 10% of missile range (again, measured from the jammer  aircraft), and would have a -90% effect on the missile (making it very unlikely that a hit would be achieved). Of course, the target could still use chaff to distract the missile.

 

The concentric circles would have to move with the jammer aircraft. I'd use this only for dedicated aircraft (EF-111, EA-6B etc) but a much reduced version could be had for jammer pods on strike aircraft.

 

Edit: OMG I don't think I've ever resurrected something this dead before....

Edited August 21, 2023 by VZ_342