Why so many keys for one action?

[NeilWillis]

Read the thread again, people refuted your points already. For example, not everyone uses a TM HOTAS Warthog, and even has Target or 3-way switches.

 

"What are you even complaining about instead of doing a custom script for a 400$ joystick software!"

 

The simple fact of the matter is that a MiG-21 pilot can use his damn left hand to do this shit and not take his right hand of the stick(*click*click*). Once LN models that I will stop complaining about wepon selector rotary & gear switches.^^

 

edit: And sorry if my tone is somewhat aggressive but I just reread this topic and some people just pop in here to tell us "you just don't appreciate the realism!" ... that really pisses me off. Either people didn't read this thread or outright ignore the legitimate complains of many users who explained their troubles.

 

"Grab the Keyboard!" can not be the solution.

 

Clearly you have misunderstood things yourself. You need to understand the aims and objectives a little better I think. Yes, I have read the entire thread, and understand exactly what it is that's been said, so please don't insult my intelligence.

 

Making points repeatedly doesn't make them any more valid. If you want to have one button to do multiple actions, you can achieve it with ANY joystick if you are prepared to do a little research. I mentioned Target merely as an example.

 

I guess however that it would mean you making an effort on your own behalf rather than just moaning about it, and getting angry.

 

There are issues with other aircraft, where the control schematics don't suit everyone, so the more savvy guys soon came up with solutions themselves, and solved the problem. The fact that this one hasn't been addressed tells me that you're really missing the picture yourself, and not the other way round.

 

All real pilots need to swap hands on the stick, or operate switches with either hand. What is the difference here? If you play with big boys toys, you have to adapt, or get creative, that's all.

[Darkwolf]

Honestly, I don't even see the point of the thread.

 

When you taxi to the runway, you have shitload of time to setup your weapon selection and seting, and remove your gear lever lock.

 

Once you take off, you barely aim, lock and shot. They are a couple of more utility buttons, but that's not a lot of button. you should be fine with just any stick.

If you are using a few others button, they is definitively something going wrong.

regarding the gear, I found out that

 

Gear up : Maj+G

Gear middle : G

Gear down : Ctrl G

 

(same with flaps position with F)

 

was really easy to recall and use.

 

Other than that.... Remember that the mig21 is a point and click interceptor, with limited AG capability. You just go to one point, shoot wathever you have been asked, and return base. Just configure your plane on the ground and whatever you have a HOTAS or a cheap logitech, it won't change anything at all. ^_^

[NeilWillis]

Another approach would be to add voice activation software. It can be used to perform strings of key presses, and would certainly allow you to have your hands free for other functions.

 

Things can be as hard or easy as you want with a little thought. Please don't go making a mountain out of a mole hill guys.

[boomerang10]

Another approach would be to add voice activation software. It can be used to perform strings of key presses, and would certainly allow you to have your hands free for other functions.

 

Things can be as hard or easy as you want with a little thought. Please don't go making a mountain out of a mole hill guys.

 

I understand the frustration some users have with it. In a real jet, it's a pretty simple process to reach forward and raise the big red handle without ever taking your eyes off whatever you doing, like flying off of your lead. It's another thing to have to play the guessing game of is it R-Shift-G, L-Shift-G, L-CTRL-G, etc, especially if you don't have the time to stay as proficient in the MiG-21 specifically as you'd like. But, I can also understand the intent of making all functions bindable.

 

I'll echo what NeilWillis said and recommend investing in VoiceAttack. After rotation, all I do is say "Gear up, flaps up" and it will do the appropriate key presses to raise both. I have similar functions set for gear/flaps down, Ground Power On/Off, re-arm menu, and chute deploy/disconnect.

[Sokol1_br]

For landing gear - a secondary control that don't need waste a button in joystick or throttle, and if used is 2 times per mission - I use:

Down= Z

Up = LAlt+Z

Neutral= LWin+Z

Unlock= LShift+Z (or click in ramp starter)

Lock =LCtrl+Z

 

Z is originally for control rudder in "keyboard pilotage" .

 

Did this sequential toggle control with one button with XPadder for a colleague, addict to

"HOTAS&FOBO (Finger On Buttons Only). :) Work OK, for ground or air start.

 

http://s29.postimg.org/o5hetz9xi/Mig_21_Gear.jpg

 

But this "weapon selector" don't find practical and logical way to deal with.

[mvsgas]

Hi guys.

 

Got the 109, CA and the awesome Mig21 today, but I'm really disapointed with the input settings of the Mig21.

 

Why do we have to set two keys insted of one to up and down the gear like on the other modules? And two more keys for turn on the radar. I really don't get it this layout and and I run out of buttons on my Warthog stick and my CH Pro Throttle.

 

I don't know nothing about programing with CH Manager or T.A.R.G.E.T, but I think it´s not necessary doing such work, cause I think it's way more simple and saves time to set more commands in one key only.

 

Is there any way to solve this? Cause in my case if don't, my Mig21 will only be serving as a target.

 

 

Sorry , I lost track on all the other post, not sure if this has been mention, but instead of assigning a key or action to every buttons on you joy stick have you tried modifiers?

 

I have been doing this since BS1. I can't afford fancy HOTAS joys sticks, my first one was a sidewinder 2 from Microsoft. Now I have a Longitech Extreme 3d pro and I do not need to use the key board and mouse for flying. Buttons 7 to 12 are all modifiers. So if I want to raise the landing gear in the Mig-21, I pres button 9 and 6 to unlock it and button 11 and 5 to raise it. Just and example, I know is not exactly what you where talking about but It does help me avoid having to use the mouse and keyboard. I have done this with all my Modules ( F-86, P-51, A10, KA-50 and Mig-21)

Edited July 1, 2015 by mvsgas

[Hadwell]

I've got a keyboard layout that has all the keys you need for combat in just A-Z and 1 to -

 

it took me all of 10 minutes to assign the keys, while retaining rearming and chat and keys like those

 

some people are so lazy...

 

no modifiers at all, when i have the keyboard layout picture done i'll post it in the mig-21 forums, here it is so far... just to give you an idea...

 

blue is gear, flaps, autopilot and trim and airbrakes, green is ir/sarh select, yellow is rato jettison/flare release, red is the 3 main radar controls (lock, iff, and continuous) purple is the rest of the important radar controls, pink is chute, gold is airshow smoke (i play on the va server a lot) and dark blue is obvious... it's not finished yet, there's more controls i have mapped... again, without using ctrl, alt, or shift...

Edited July 1, 2015 by Hadwell

[NeilWillis]

So the way I read everything here, yes, some people do have issues with gear controls.

 

However, to blame Leatherneck is both redundant, and unfair. They have their philosophy, which is to produce realism, without compromise.

 

And, more importantly, there are several ways to overcome the need to take your attention from flying the aircraft. Provided you are ready to do a little work, you can overcome any difficulty using one of those methods.

 

However, it would be an advantage to some if additional key bindings were available to reduce gear operation, and rotation of the weapons select knob.

 

Bottom line however...

 

To say that the lack of these short cuts makes the aircraft unmanageable is frankly short sighted given all the alternatives that can be, and are used. It is no disadvantage to use a joystick alone without lots of extra buttons, provided you are prepared to look at ways of overcoming the perceived lack of control options.

 

Is that fair and reasonable? I think so.

[Darkwolf]

Anyone had a look into the keyboard configuration file ? you should be able to edit those one and the deviceinit.lua and do something about it.

[Sokol1_br]

So the way I read everything here, yes, some people do have issues with gear controls.

 

OT - The thing is, for "virpilovs" (a flight/game sim developer phrase), HOTAS became synonymous of:

 

Control all plane functions without remove the hands from stick and throttle, including engine start and landing gear. Dont matter if the (RL) A-10 pilot need move his left handle for a lever in left side of cockpit to handle the LG. :D

 

On Topic: A useful option in DCS Controls is the Modifier "Switches", very helpful for TARGET'less people:

 

Example, set Scroll Lock key as "Switches".

 

Configure for Mig-21 (at spawn) joystick trigger is wheel brake lever. ;)

 

Joystick left side button + modifier (pinkie button) flip the ordnance cover OFF.

 

With the "Switch" ON - confirmed be Scroll Lock LED - the trigger now fire the cannon and left button drop bombs, fire rockets, after expend the ordnance, this button + modifier (pinkie) flip the button cover ON... :thumbup:

 

On RTB turn OFF the "Switch" for use trigger as brake again. :joystick:

 

Find this Autohotkey script for handle in LOGICAL way the rotary switch (up-down, remember the last position), but is for axis... :huh:

 

http://www.autohotkey.com/board/topic/40568-kind-of-rotary-switch-with-a-joystick-axis/

Edited July 1, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[Laobi]

It's easy, set a modifier on your stick and double the amount of available buttons. Or, do what I did, buy a couple of old cheap sticks, take the sticks off, if you feel able take the electronics out and make button/switch boxes from them with new casing. Position them behind your main stick and throttle and you'll always have extra controls should you need them.

 

Leatherneck did a great job, it's an amazing jet and has taught me a lot more than most other aircraft. Please keep the realism, more buttons equal more choices and control over the aircraft. If you want simplicity go for the FC3 modules or one of the many flight based 1st person shoot 'em ups out there.

 

Some people want the moon on a stick.

[Sokol1_br]

For Tm owners, the guy post in SimHQ a well done Cougar/Warthog profiles, for Mig-21 the weapon selector can be turned clockwise and counter-clockwise with HAT2 up/down (\).

AI/ATC radio communication done with HATS, a real "FOBO" :) profile. :thumbup:

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3858400/DCS_World_TARGET_profile_for_T#Post3858400

[cichlidfan]

For Tm owners, the guy post in SimHQ a well done Cougar/Warthog profiles, for Mig-21 the weapon selector can be turned clockwise and counter-clockwise with HAT2 up/down (\).

AI/ATC radio communication done with HATS, a real "FOBO" :) profile. :thumbup:

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3858400/DCS_World_TARGET_profile_for_T#Post3858400

 

That profile doesn't not yet support the TM Warthog. He is, however, accepting donations to fund his ability to add the Warthog.

 

EDIT: Btw, that thread/profile can also be found on this forum.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116454

Edited July 3, 2015 by cichlidfan

[GriffonBR]

Sorry , I lost track on all the other post, not sure if this has been mention, but instead of assigning a key or action to every buttons on you joy stick have you tried modifiers?

 

I solved my problems few months ago. Got a pair of Thrustmaster MFDs and now I have most of the main Mig 21 weapons switches set on it. I don't have patience to figure out how to use TARGET to set lots of profiles etc, etc. I just hope that Leatherneck follow the same way of Belsimtek for the next modules, giving the both options like in the Mig-15. Not everybody have the ($)knowledge($) to build a full cockpit or a button box full of lights and possibilities. But anyway, thanks for the help mate.

[313_Nevo]

in case there is enough keys on the keyboard (no need for modifiers) one can create his own cheap 'button boxes' from cheap keyboards ;)

Source: Roger Dodger Aviation

[OnlyforDCS]

in case there is enough keys on the keyboard (no need for modifiers) one can create his own cheap 'button boxes' from cheap keyboards ;)

Source: Roger Dodger Aviation

 

Wow, this is actually pretty damn cool :)

[PiedDroit]

in case there is enough keys on the keyboard (no need for modifiers) one can create his own cheap 'button boxes' from cheap keyboards ;)

Source: Roger Dodger Aviation

 

Did you managed to use this in DCS, in addition to the normal keyboard ?

[Sokol1_br]

You use this labeled keyboard as "button box", instead the normal keyboard - leave both keyboards connected - but not a extended functions.

 

The custom keyboard just make the functions more accessible due labels/colors, the keys do the same thing in both keyboards.

 

In some flight sim games using Hidmacros is possible use the custom keyboard as exclusive input, but this software dont work in DCS.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[Hadwell]

Did you managed to use this in DCS, in addition to the normal keyboard ?

 

it is a normal keyboard, just upside down....

[PiedDroit]

it is a normal keyboard, just upside down....

Looks like it took you some time to notice :lol:

 

The question is serious (Sokol1_br got it in his last sentence), it seems there is no way to use two keyboards at once, I'd be very interested about a simple software solution to make a keyboard look like another device.

Because if you use this you need to remap stuff and in my case it means re-doing the controller profiles (because I use TARGET, sending keystrokes).

[Exorcet]

Well for me, with the x-55, i have a 3-way switch for the flaps, and on the toggle switch right next to the flaps, i have gear up and gear down, just use mouse for neutral... but those and any start-up controls are only used before, during or after takeoff and landing, not at all during flight, their not time critical...

I have keys set up to take care of everything. It can be done, but not everyone has the same preferences.

 

as for pylon selection, groms, bombs and a2g rockets generally aren't time critical, you can have them set up and ready to go long before you'll use them, so i just have a2a pylons 1-4 bound to a hat switch...

I select air to air with "M", toggle IR and SAR with "I" and "S", select 1-4 with 1-4, etc. This is unrealistic, but that's OK because it's the best I can do. I don't really care if someone has a single button to select IR missile on pylon 2 because that's not really unrealistic compared to fumbling through the keyboard. Both are approximations, mine is closer in number of steps but probably not in execution time or smoothness, while the other option is the opposite.

 

I like the fact that everything can be mapped

I do too, and I hope this is available for all future modules, but that's not mutually exclusive with simple controls.

 

for example; it should be without having 1 button that puts the gear up, waits for it to lock and puts it in neutral for you, because if it did that, it wouldn't be like the real plane where you have to put the gear into the neutral postion yourself...

I don't see a big difference from the unrealistic keyboard. Just because something is broken down into the correct number of steps doesn't make it a golden standard of realism. No one would confuse a keyboard for a real cockpit. The keyboard is vastly inferior, poorly labeled, and overcrowded. It's a simplification. Dealing with the MiG's gear isn't really a big deal, but as it is in DCS you're probably spending a lot more effort than you would in the real plane. If you want realism, you'd need to build a sim pit. If you're OK with simplified controls, use a keyboard, clickable cockpit, or scripts to map complex commands. They're all essentially the same in that they are inaccurate compared to reality. They differ in how they are inaccurate and those differences might suit different people better or worse.

 

you could re-map the keyboard to exclude all the startup controls that only get used while your turning on the plane and off, it would open up single key presses so you could use 1 to - for pylon selecton, q, a, and z for gear up, neutral, and down, w, s, x and c for flaps up, combat/takeoff, landing, and neutral, etc...

 

I tend to ignore start up commands because they are more easily handled with the clickable cockpit. Things are labeled and tend to be more sensibly positioned than keys, and the time lost to looking around a cockpit with a mouse (I don't have head tracking) compared to reality doesn't matter as much on the ground. Still, I'm using an approximation, so there isn't a huge difference compared to someone using custom set of commands that combine multiple key presses.

 

My goodness. Just use your mouse with the amazing clickable cockpit. The real Mig-21 puts a large workload on the pilot and that is represented in DCS.

Inaccurately, with greater workload if you don't have a full scale MiG-21 cockpit as a controller.

 

It is not a HOTAS fighter like an F-16 that affords the pilot the maximum amount of SA.

It's not a keyboard fighter either. While not as good as more modern aircraft, the goal in making the cockpit was not to make it as difficult to use as possible. Everything could have a button, but this was avoided to make some commands easier to locate or to use.

 

 

 

Are you actually saying that the fully clickable cockpit is a bad thing?

I'm saying it's vastly different from sitting in a real plane. I'm very glad to have it because it's a necessary compromise to make until aircraft cockpits become dirt cheap or we can plug our brains directly into the sim. Just because the virtual cockpit offers good things (it certainly does) does not make it without flaws (it is certainly flawed in terms of realism).

 

One bit of wisdom I heard from a real pilot was to map controls in a simulator as close as possible to the real thing, otherwise it is negative training. If it's a switch the pilot has to manipulate by moving his hand away from the throttle you leave it that way.

What is as close as possible? To try and squeeze a button with a cover to two separate, unlabeled keys? The same button with a Shift modifier that requires more fingers than the real button? Mapping the cover and the button to the same key so that the single motion you would use to activate both in reality are captured?

 

well the problem with mouse click is... in real life, you don't need to look down to flip a switch, you don't need to drag the switches (left mouse button) around a mousepad in order to select a function for that switch, see... mouse click is a lot more unrealistic than hotas, even in a plane like the mig-21...

 

Yes and no. I'm sure you've noticed in some DCS planes that some buttons are rather picky, you need to place the mouse in the perfect spot to actually be able to click the button. It's far worse than trying to press the real button. Also as you mentioned, you might not need to look at the actual button. The virtual cockpit is probably the best compromise for your average computer with midrange HOTAS and keys, but it's plagues with unrealistic traits.

 

 

and if you're going to go so far as to cheat what would be 3 physical actions into 1, you might as well go all the way and just make all the switches for startup into 1...

Why? Wouldn't that mean if you're "cheating" and placing a button on a HOTAS that isn't on the real HOTAS, you might as well have the plane fly itself? Compressing 3 actions into 1 does not imply compressing every action into 1.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the MiG-21Bis was created to model all the systems and controls as accurately as possible.

 

Why should the fact that it takes several operations to manage undercarriage deployment be an issue? The whole point would be lost if everything was reduced to the lowest common denominator just because some of us are less willing to work properly with all the systems in the aircraft.

All we need are options and everyone is happy. You're placing more importance on number of steps. Others are placing more importance on workload. Neither is more realistic than the other.

 

A very straightforward remedy for anyone who wants less of a workload in the cockpit is to use programs like Target. Solutions are available, so why is this an issue at all?

That's a solution, but so is having devs taking the issue into account from the beginning.

 

It can't be all things to all people

This is probably easier to do that many would think. Not everything is mutually exclusive. Work does take time and resources though.

[313_Nevo]

PiedDroid not actually two keyboards but I have two mices in DCS :)

this is just coming out of my head right now (as I normally fly the P51 which is not so key hungry)

 

As Sokol1 mentioned, you can have more then one keyboard connected at the same time. It has its shortcomings (like obvious duplication) but they are out-weighted by the price.

Note: it assumes that you like the HOFFTAS setup - Hands Off Throttle and Stick and there is lot of space on your table/vcockpit ;)

 

Think about this layout:

keyboard 1 - the one in front of you which is comfortable for you to write on

keyboard 2 - on your left next to your throttle

keyboard 3 - on your right next to your joy

 

Standard kb has around 80 keys!? So 55 unique on your left kb, 25 unique on your right kb. You just need to label the keys you will be using and remove the unused keys, cover the blank spaces.

This way you can have two unique side button panels. With cheap kb you can have such special panels for each plane ;) just plug 'n play

 

And there is lot of options - standard kb, kb with detachable numpad, kb without numpad, solo numpad, special kb with additional programmable buttons, etc. ..just dont exceed the max number of USB devices connected. Max is 7??

[gavagai]

Exorcet,

 

I feel like you're throwing the book at this topic in order to back up your position. That said, I think this passage is a good one to look at:

 

I'm saying it's vastly different from sitting in a real plane. I'm very glad to have it because it's a necessary compromise to make until aircraft cockpits become dirt cheap or we can plug our brains directly into the sim. Just because the virtual cockpit offers good things (it certainly does) does not make it without flaws (it is certainly flawed in terms of realism).

 

Yes, short of building your own pit, the clickable cockpit is the furthest we've come in computer flight simulations in our striving toward fidelity. And that is the point, it is the furthest. After all, every simulator is "flawed in terms of realism.":smilewink:

 

If the difficult of operating a real aircraft is important to you, then I would like to see you advocate for the following change in DCS: virtual pilots may no longer move their pov while pulling more than 5g. Moreover, rotating the pov to the rear hemisphere will be limited another 10 degrees to both port and starboard.:music_whistling:

[PiedDroit]

One possibility to mitigate the problem (of not having physical switches) is to create a snapview centered on the armament panel (or radar panel, etc), and map a joystick button to this snapview.

 

In flight, while looking somewhere (e.g. a bogey), you could bring the snapview using the joystick button, click on the appropriate switch with the mouse (using the other hand) then go back to your normal view.

The use of snapview should allow you not to lose sight.

 

I don't know if it's workable, I'll try it tonight.

Edited July 7, 2015 by PiedDroit

[Sokol1_br]

Mouse click is fine for "ramp start" - imagine if you have to operate all those switch's with this RCtrl+RWin+RShit+...

 

But for in flight commands a joy' button, switch or even a keyboard single key is more practical, and less "gamey". :)

 

I don't have problem in use the keyboard as "panel switch's" other that find the appropriated command in the right moment is sometimes PITA.