F-86...initial impressions

[Filament]

I'll keep this brief.

 

Although I own "nearly everything in the stable" I initially shied away from this module, as there were a few-too-many 'complaints:'

 

-Yaw, but no directional change (vector)

-No nose-wheel/inadequate nose-wheel steering

-Lands too fast, doesn't slow down, no speed-bleed

 

This is not a comprehensive review! I'm a busy guy, enjoying Christmas, like you. So...on with it...

 

-It yaws AND changes direction fine - what's yer' gear? :dunno:

-Map a button for nose-wheel steering - no issues here!

-Between trim, throttle, flaps, speed-brakes and 'flying it with the AoA and regime that would normally be expected' I encountered no problems.

 

I even landed it with 2 bombs, rockets and 70% fuel with no damage (full realism). :thumbup: *

 

Granted, I'm not a 'rookie' with THOUSANDS of hours in the sims we all fly, over 20+ years, and am not a beta tester or developer, but I know a lot of you guys in our hobby - 'on the oblique.' :music_whistling:

 

I almost 'passed' completely on this offering, because of a 'porked' FM (my interpretation of comments) - even though I used to work the flight-line in '79 at Kunsan AB, when the ROKAF flew our F-86's, while we transited from F-4's to F-16's. That would have been a HUGE mistake! :(

 

I'm done with this 'missive.' There are lots of 'umbrages' I have with "ED stuff" - but this plane ain't one of them!

 

* The reason Santa returned without the reverse-gifts he was going to give all the adults of children who dearly deserved it,

was that this was an over-zealous orientation flight - I had not even a HINT of RTFM! "I got this!..." with switch-flipping and assuming you know what processes are needed for arming/firing/dropping are not greatly different from "honey...watch this!" ;)

Edited December 27, 2014 by Filament

[outlawal2]

I'll keep this brief.

 

Although I own "nearly everything in the stable" I initially shied away from this module, as there were a few-too-many 'complaints:'

 

-Yaw, but no directional change (vector)

-No nose-wheel/inadequate nose-wheel steering

-Lands too fast, doesn't slow down, no speed-bleed

 

This is not a comprehensive review! I'm a busy guy, enjoying Christmas, like you. So...on with it...

 

-It yaws AND changes direction fine - what's yer' gear? :dunno:

-Map a button for nose-wheel steering - no issues here!

-Between trim, throttle, flaps, speed-brakes and 'flying it with the AoA and regime that would normally be expected' I encountered no problems.

 

I even landed it with 2 bombs, rockets and 70% fuel with no damage (full realism). :thumbup:

 

Granted, I'm not a 'rookie' with THOUSANDS of hours in the sims we all fly, over 20+ years, and am not a beta tester or developer, but I know a lot of you guys in our hobby - 'on the oblique.' :music_whistling:

 

I almost 'passed' completely on this offering, because of a 'porked' FM (my interpretation of comments) - even though I used to work the flight-line in '79 at Kunsan AB, when the ROKAF flew our F-86's, while we transited from F-4's to F-16's. That would have been a HUGE mistake! :(

 

I'm done with this 'missive.' There are lots of 'umbrages' I have with "ED stuff" - but this plane ain't one of them!

 

Yep, pretty much!

:thumbup:

[Vampyre]

Has anyone ask an F-86 pilot for a comparative evaluation? As far as current F-86 drivers, Capt. Snodgrass immediately springs to mind.

[NeilWillis]

Irony mode on -- Yep, a little objective criticism would be very useful, and let's end all this "It just doesn't SEEM right" crud.

 

There is a deliberate, and accurate, delay in the nose wheel steering hydraulics, so yes it seems over sensitive, but it is just how it is.

 

The ground attack limitations are no doubt due to the fact that as a plane designed purely for dog fighting, it is unstable at low speeds. Surprise surprise!

 

The guns aren't effective against armour - wow what a surprise, they're not GAU 8's. The rockets are 1950s technology too, so why am I surprised a tank is a tough nut to crack? Are you surprised really?

 

I think the only real criticism anyone could have for the Sabre - unless of course they flew it - is that it doesn't yet have a full manual. The rest - honestly, is it anything more than just speculation and hot air? And more fool anyone who hesitates to buy a module on the strength of some of the chatter on forums in general. You should have tried some of the other simulations that preceded this one. There is one - and you'll laugh at this - that has warbirds, but no weapon simulation at all - and yet people buy it!!!

 

OK, irony mode off, but you do get the point I hope?

 

Give a guy a joystick, and let him fly pixels for a few years, and he becomes an expert. I still wouldn't trust him to land anything more than a paper aeroplane if my life depended on it, so why would I take their word for anything unless they actually flew the real thing?

Edited December 27, 2014 by NeilWillis

[Invisibull]

T-55s aren't so hard to kill with rockets if your technique is correct. By following the procedures outlined in the quick start guide I'm able to kill 2-3 tanks in formation in one pass without much trouble. Are you using the sight mechanical caging lever and sight electrical caging button during your attacks? When used as designed they increase accuracy a great deal in diving attacks.

 

If you'd like to practice sometime, just drop me a line.

[f86enthusiast]

Lesson #1- If you've never had real stick time you probably have little background outside of sims to comment on a flight model period besides speculation.

 

Lesson #2- If you've flown but not the RL Sabre, you might have an insight but you still have no clue about the accuracy of the flight model and its purely speculation.

 

Lesson #3- If you're on this forum and have never flown, go take a real life lesson with a CFI, you wont regret it.

 

Lesson #4- Follow Lesson #3 then get really rich and buy a real Sabre, and say screw the module....and then let me borrow the keys occasionally as a reward for setting your life path.

[msalama]

'porked' FM (my interpretation of comments)

 

You know, the most annoying aspect of any CFS community has got to be these armchair experts who either don't have any RL stick time, or if they do, definitely _not_ in the crates they fly virtually. Now throw in some chart p0rn those folks either 1) can't interpret correctly or 2) don't understand in relation to the whole, and what you get is a neverending undies-in-a-twist handbag war no sane person can endure.

 

Now I'm not saying that all critique is unwarranted, or that the devs always get it right - heavens no! But there's still a distinct difference between a wannabe expert and a real one, and this I think should be taken into account at all times ;)

[NeilWillis]

+1.

 

What I find really bugs me is that they cost the developers sales, which will mean less goodies for us later.

 

I'm never one to try and stop people speaking out, but if you are just giving impressions based on armchair flying, please say so. If you genuinely have accurate info, then bring it on in spades.

 

Just cuz something doesn't seem easy to use doesn't make it incorrect. You may find a developer has been working hard to make it feel that way simply because it was a quirk in the prototype. And who can blame them for staying out of these debates? You just know we'd savage them here with furry pink handbags!

[SFC Tako]

+1 on this thread!

I have zero stick time in real life, but I have "flown" this bird before in "Mig Alley" and it feels pretty much "right" if not better. I've always been fond of early jets and well, I for one feel like I'm flying one of those when I buckle up in the DCS-version of the Sabre :)

 

But I'm a phoney alright :(

I'd love to hear a real Sabre driver speak on the subject!

[johnv2pt0]

While you're mostly right, don't fool yourself into thinking that having real stick time in one military aircraft doesn't translate into others. There are some very fundamental truths on how airplanes work and anyone that has thousands of hours in military aircraft knows better than most when talking about subjective impressions.

[NeilWillis]

No denying that johnv2pt0, what are your impressions of the F-86 module?

[NeilWillis]

Fair enough, but did you read the first post, and his comments about why he didn't buy the F-86F?

 

Trust me, there are a lot of people who could easily be put off by the negative comments here. I'm not saying don't complain, but I am saying try to be objective, and avoid the pitfall of becoming too negative.

 

A lot of people put a lot of effort into producing modules, whether for profit or not. Let's just give them the support they deserve, and see DCS World for what it is - streets ahead of any other sim package.

 

As for value for money - just wait for the sales if you are patient enough. Personally, I have been buying on day one - every module too. Why? So that there is a future for ED and the other developers.

[NeilWillis]

Glad to hear it.

 

I think the next 12 months should be very good for DCS World, given the projects that are about to come to fruition.

 

The Hornet, Spitfires, The Jug, Typhoon, Aviojet, Cobra, to name a few, and of course Edge.

[=Mac=]

In DCS, the only aircraft I don't have are not available yet. That's not to say I fly them all. That's to say, for what it's worth, nothing in these forums will sway me from making a purchase. I have all three helos, flying only the Huey, because I want DCS to live on. Giving ED money is my way of doing that.

 

These forums are for us to yammer about our hobby. If someone wants to say that the F-42 sucks, well, that's their opinion and, sometimes, I'll read what they have to say just to see if it makes sense to me. Whether they are right or wrong, the ability to say what they feel is important here.

 

P-man's opinion of the flight characteristics of the P-51, to ME, is of utmost importance because I have come to know that he knows a hell of a lot more about it than I do and I have come to appreciate his flying techniques compared to my own. Should he offer an opinion of (my fictitious) F-42, I may disagree with him but I certainly will read with great care what he has to say.

 

In a forum, such as this one, the customer has the right to be wrong. Take it with a grain of salt, point out flaws, and play nice.

 

While I have only flown FSX, and Janes, my opinion of the superiority of DCS over ABC is just my view. But I sure do like DCS with all its faults.

 

So.... does anyone know when the F-18 will be released?:megalol:

[f86enthusiast]

I get all of your points, and I am not really complaining so to speak. This is just how the F86 feels to me as opposed to an A-10 or P-51 and my personal opinions on how each would feel in reality. So I'm not making moot points. They're just what I see and feel. As far as it's effectiveness with ground targets, again...I can kill a T-55 pretty easily with the .50 cals. on the P-51. I can't get close enough without sustaining major damage with the F86 due to drastic bullet drop. That's all I am saying. And yet again....is any of this stuff remotely related to reality. I really doubt it. The flight dynamics and general functions of any AC are a pretty small factor when flying on a PC, no matter how good the system is. The human body and how it interacts with the actual environment is a good 70-80% of an experience. So I do not believe that any Sim on this earth (other than a 50 million dollar training sim) is going to be very accurate. So I'm not complaining. DCS does a great job and I still fly the F86 every time I get on DCS.

 

 

""""""+1.

 

What I find really bugs me is that they cost the developers sales, which will mean less goodies for us later.

 

I'm never one to try and stop people speaking out, but if you are just giving impressions based on armchair flying, please say so. If you genuinely have accurate info, then bring it on in spades.

 

Just cuz something doesn't seem easy to use doesn't make it incorrect. You may find a developer has been working hard to make it feel that way simply because it was a quirk in the prototype. And who can blame them for staying out of these debates? You just know we'd savage them here with furry pink handbags! """"""""

 

I completely disagree in some respects to this. I heard lots of bad things about the A10C, Mi8, and KA50 yet I purchased each of these modules with no hesitation.

The truth of anything is that there are things that everyone likes and dislikes about everything. Just look at the replies to posts on the Dora. Some guys swear by it and thinks it's the easiest thing in the world to fly, while others can't get it off of the ground. Everyone is different and I think that most of the people who come here have the sense to understand this. I know that some modules I have purchased just sit around because I really don't want to fly them. but none the less.....I still keep buying new modules. I don't for one minute believe that any of the stuff people say discourage others to purchase any of this stuff. And a lot of people who don't like certain modules are in their favorite module's threads praising them, so it all evens out. :smilewink: And for the record....I did clearly state that I am just a casual flyer for the exact reasons that you stated.

 

Tuco even the 50 million dollar ones get close to the real thing but it ain't no cigar. Planes are living breathing entities in the hand of a pilot and will never be just 00's and 1's.

[Filament]

Well...since I'm the OP, I can hijack my own thread and go OT... :P

 

ON-T, the F-86 flight model is wonderful! My fav, by far! I even managed to bork a couple of take-offs and cart-wheel after dragging a wingtip - without really trying very hard! :doh: I'll be spending many hours, with this one! Flown correctly, it's very easy manage - punishing, when you don't. :thumbup:

 

Overall, I think most of the FM's are a little too real - since many of us are anal flightsim enthusiasts - if it's not hard, it's a porked FM, right? :music_whistling: And go back waaayyyyy far back...farther back than the Flanker series. And this whole 'trend' with the vociferous 'whining' started around the time of F-15 and CJ having to put on his flame suit before wading into the feeding frenzy.

 

Anyway...my most-pressing "dislikes":

 

- BS2: I don't like the laser burnout and the cumbersome-ness of the autopilot and flight director. These are not 'mis-modelled' - I just don't like 'em. Still love to fly the 'Shark, though.

 

- A-10C: Great, if you've got a Warthog. Hard to rig if you don't. But definitely doable/have-done-able.

 

Overall, just too damn hard to kill targets. If it were that way IRL, there'd be 4 sorties for every kill. Probably down to practice - but not every jockey with a Hellfire-bearing platform of some type (for example) spent 500-hours at the 'range' to get to an 80% kill ratio - I'm sure of it!

 

This is my 'order' of "best" or "most accurate" sims - all the Russkies are intertwined and affiliated, and at the top...see a trend? :P

 

- Rise of Flight

- IL-2 (series)

- DCS

- X-plane (if you have some of the Carenado planes, they're quite good)

 

That's it, for now... hijack's over! :D

[iFoxRomeo]

...

Although I own "nearly everything in the stable" I initially shied away from this module, as there were a few-too-many 'complaints:'

...

Granted, I'm not a 'rookie' with THOUSANDS of hours in the sims we all fly, over 20+ years, and am not a beta tester or developer, but I know a lot of you guys in our hobby - 'on the oblique.' :music_whistling:

 

I almost 'passed' completely on this offering, because of a 'porked' FM (my interpretation of comments) - ...

Thousands of hours and 20+ years in the sim-business, yet you don´t know that discussion boards in the internet are mostly populated by peolpe who complain about things and/or problems?

The only person responsible for you almost passing the Sabre are you.

There are lots of videos that show the beauty of the DCS:Sabre.

 

I love the Sabre. It is such a nice plane to fly. And even with the "problems" BST has, I can´t wait to fly the MiG-15. But that doesn´t mean I would not point at something if I see that something might be wrong.

 

...

-It yaws AND changes direction fine - what's yer' gear?

...

Show a track or video where you perform a 20° turn with the pedals only and wings level. Thanks.

 

Fox

[Robin_Hood]

I think the only real criticism anyone could have for the Sabre - unless of course they flew it - is that it doesn't yet have a full manual.

 

Frankly, I don't understand this complaint (which is often expressed in the forums, including for other modules). Why would you need a DCS manual when you can have the real F-86F manual (there was a link in these forums if you haven't got it yet). It has everything I could possibly want from a manual (including irritating descriptions of some equipment we don't have, such as TACAN).

 

I personally say I really enjoy flying this F-86F.

[f86enthusiast]

Frankly, I don't understand this complaint (which is often expressed in the forums, including for other modules). Why would you need a DCS manual when you can have the real F-86F manual (there was a link in these forums if you haven't got it yet). It has everything I could possibly want from a manual (including irritating descriptions of some equipment we don't have, such as TACAN).

 

I personally say I really enjoy flying this F-86F.

 

You said what I was thinking Sir Robin.

[johnv2pt0]

No denying that johnv2pt0, what are your impressions of the F-86 module?

 

I love it. It's one of my favorites and I can't find too much fault except for the way the rudder acts.

 

The thing that drives me nuts is the lack of a manual...but that's something I've complained about plenty before so I'll leave it at that!

[Chief1942]

Uh! It's "Beta".

 

Frankly, I don't understand this complaint (which is often expressed in the forums, including for other modules). Why would you need a DCS manual when you can have the real F-86F manual (there was a link in these forums if you haven't got it yet). It has everything I could possibly want from a manual (including irritating descriptions of some equipment we don't have, such as TACAN).

 

I personally say I really enjoy flying this F-86F.

 

I sense one of the reasons folks complain about not having a manual with the F-86 is that when you pay $50 for a sim, it should contain a manual. I'll cut them some slack since we knew we were purchasing a "bets" product that was still being fine tuned/debugged. But I would suspect there would be a lot of unhappy folks if the final release does not have a manual with it. As you noted, the "real" manual has stuff in it that simply does not pertain to the one DCS has released. Big difference in the real aircraft and the one DCS provided us, no matter how hard they try to give us the most realistic experience possible on a computer.

[default762792]

Frustratingly but amusingly, the real manual, which was very helpful on stuff like instrument lighting rheostats and setting up my HOTAS realistically, is very vague about one of the things that intrigues me the most about the F-86. I quote: "Operation of Low-altitude Bombing System (LABS). This information will be supplied when available." So, Belsimtek is just being faithful to the real thing. :D

 

Seriously though, it's an excellent module even in this beta state.

[NeilWillis]

Frankly, I don't understand this complaint (which is often expressed in the forums, including for other modules). Why would you need a DCS manual when you can have the real F-86F manual (there was a link in these forums if you haven't got it yet). It has everything I could possibly want from a manual (including irritating descriptions of some equipment we don't have, such as TACAN).

 

I personally say I really enjoy flying this F-86F.

 

The real F-86F manual is a help, but it doesn't include all the information we need. Plus it isn't delivered free with the module, so my criticism stands.

[Conroy]

I begin to fly now this Sabre.

 

My two cents? I'm schocked, 9/10. One of the best work ever seen in a flight sim.

[Robin_Hood]

I am not saying they should not provide a manual at all, but some people seem to think it is absolutely necessary to fly the module. I am making the point because of the Mi-8 actually. I read countless posts that suggested it was impossible to learn how to operate the aircraft without the DCS manual being released, while there are several Mi-8/Mi-17 manuals around.

 

I grant you that this wasn't exactly what you originally said, maybe I read too much into your post.

 

Though personally I would like it best it BST included the real-world manual in the download, pending the DCS one. But there may be some copyrights or export or whatever problems with that, unfortunately.