TM Warthog questions

[IonicRipper]

I'm thinking about finally pulling the trigger on one of those after all these years of drooling at them but I have a few questions first.

 

1: Do you need to use the TARGET (i think is it) software to use every functionality in the DCS A-10C?

 

2: Can you turn on/off the engines by pushing the quadrant's throttle past the idle detent (just like the real one)?

 

3: I've heard about people having issues with stiction with these. Was it a wide spread issue? If so, how bad is it and is there any fix for it?

 

4: Not really important but I noticed the actual friction control is set else where then the real plane (the friction lever being a normal axis.) Any one know why TM did it like this? How difficult could it have been to use the real friction lever?

Edited January 20, 2015 by IonicRipper

[CaptJackG]

I'm still fairly new owner myself but I'll share what I've learned.

1. Do not need to use TARGET in DCS A-10C. DCS assigns all the functions as per the actual HOTAS and switches.

2. Yes

3. I've not had any issues but again I'm still fairly new owner. From what I've read it looks like regreasing will fix the problem.

4. The friction lock functions as a slider that you can program for any use, I use mine for zoom view control.

[Yurgon]

1: Do you need to use the TARGET (i think is it) software to use every functionality in the DCS A-10C?

 

Not at all! With A-10C, the Warthog is Plug&Play (with a few exceptions; for instance, the trim switch is mapped as view control; if you have a headtracker, it'll take you like two minutes in DCS to re-map it to trim :)).

 

No need at all to use TARGET for the A-10C.

 

2: Can you turn on/off the engines by pushing the quadrant's throttle past the idle detent (just like the real one)?

 

Yes.

 

3: I've heard about people having issues with stiction with these. Was it a wide spread issue? If so, how bad is it and is there any fix for it?

 

I don't have a problem with it.

 

When I deliberately move the stick very slowly, I do notice a little bit of "stiction", but I never notice it when actually flying in any of the DCS modules.

 

I think I read that people experimented with all kinds of grease, to varying degrees of success. There's a thread by Frazer IIRC that goes into a lot of detail.

 

4: Not really important but I noticed the actual friction control is set else where then the real plane (the friction lever being a normal axis.) Any one know why TM did it like this? How difficult could it have been to use the real friction lever?

 

I guess it's because the position of the friction control lever cries for it to be used as an axis. I've mapped it to the zoom-axis in all DCS sims and I could think of quite a few other use-cases where it would fit perfectly (like the wingspan and prop pitch adjustments in the WWII birds).

 

However, I don't know if that's the reason behind it.

 

Personally, it feels to me as if the real friction control on the Warthog doesn't do a whole lot (unlike the one on the Cougar throttle which had quite a strong effect) so I haven't fiddled with it in a long time - the friction is simply okay out-of-the-box IMO. :thumbup:

[IonicRipper]

Awesome, thanks guys!

[IonicRipper]

One more thing: From the videos ive seen, it seems the slew control is a bit like the mouse stick on my x55. Only thing is my mouse stick doesnt work in dcs without sst because its not an axis. Is the slew control on the warthog an axis?

[CaptJackG]

In DCS A-10C it functions as a slew control

[cichlidfan]

Is the slew control on the warthog an axis?

 

Two.

[Manuel_108]

For me, the wiggeling of the joystick in the neutral position is kinda annoying. It's been here since day 1. However, I still don't have the balls to open the base up and look if something's broken.

[IonicRipper]

Do they all have that wiggle? I have it with my x55 and i too find it annoying

[Yurgon]

The center-play on my Warthog stick is minimal (almost none on the Y-axis, very little on the X-axis). It's not non-existent, but it's the most minor center-play I've ever experienced on any joystick. I doubt the real A-10C stick will feel that much better. But that's obviously a personal impression and may well be different with other units. Let's just say that if it has noticeable center-play, it's probably broken and should returned ASAP.

 

BTW, my Warthog is now 2 1/2 years old and has been used rather extensively. :D

[Yurgon]

While we're on the subject of things I'm not so happy about with the Warthog, here's my personal list.

 

First of all, the Slew Control is cheap. It's relatively difficult to precisely control the TGP and TAD cursor with it (or any axis, really). This stick/knob is simply too short and it feels cheap. The microstick on the Cougar (the Warthog's predecessor) was way better in terms of feel, feedback and precision. The Slew Cursor on the Warthog is the single most stupid decision IMHO.

 

Second, there's a known problem (no clue whether TM fixed it yet) where the slider-axis on the throttle base (the fake "friction slider") sends irregular output, much like a cheap joystick with bad pots. The problem can be remedied by setting the lights on the throttle base to either off or full on; with any setting in between, the friction slider will be much less precise.

 

Third, both throttle casings are mostly made of plastic. There's no practical downside, it's just that it feels cheap in comparison to all the metal parts.

 

Finally, I could write a whole pamphlet about TARGET and why it's practically broken by design (which is doubly painful because TARGET has some insanely powerful features and I'd like to use it if it wasn't so fundamentally broken), but let's just leave it at that.

 

To the "TM: New HOTAS" wishlist, I'll add an easily adjustable Afterburner-detent. The Warthog can be modified so that the throttle incorporates such a detent, but it in order to put it in place, it must be opened (yes, it's very simple, requires an Allen key and maybe 2 minutes or so). It would be amazing if there was a rotary knob or something that could be used to (re-) move the AB-detent, though.

 

With all that said, as soon as my Warthog breaks beyond repair, I'll order a new one because AFAICT there's simply nothing that compares to it in terms of feel and precision unless you're ready to go for an entirely new price-range. All in all it's rock solid, it's the perfect stick for DCS A-10C and an amazing piece of hardware. :thumbup:

[cichlidfan]

I can pretty much agree with all of that except the part about Target. I am not a coder so I don't know any better.

[Yurgon]

I can pretty much agree with all of that except the part about Target. I am not a coder so I don't know any better.

 

It's a combination of problems.

 

As far as I know, DirectX still allows a maximum of 8 axes and 32 buttons per device (DX_X_AXIS, DX_Y_AXIS and so on, DX_BTN1, DX_BTN2 and so on).

 

That's why TM set up the Warthog to show as two distinct devices: Stick (one device) and Throttle (another device). Neither of these exceeds any of the DirectX limits, but both combined easily exceed the 32 button limit and together they feature 7 axes if I'm not mistaken (stick x, stick y, throttle left, throttle right, slider, slew x, slew y).

 

Now the problem is that TARGET combines all controllers into a virtual "Thrustmaster combined" device, loosing the ability to map each and every button as a DirectX button. And if more controllers with more than one additional axis are combined into the profile, those additional axes can no longer be used (or the controller must be configured outside of TARGET).

 

That's my primary beef with TARGET.

 

If it "simply" offered the possibility to configure multiple virtual devices, all of these problems could be circumvented with modern software like DCS while retaining potential compatibility with older applications that can only use one DirectX controller.

 

Since it doesn't, it's my point of view that TARGET is simply fundamentally broken.

[cichlidfan]

OK. Since that is the only thing that really bugs me about Target, I agree. I still use it for everything, my stick is rotated so it is mandatory at the moment.

[Yurgon]

Additionally, if DirectX allowed like 2^16 axes and 2^32 buttons, we wouldn't be running into problems anytime soon except in rather extreme constellations. Basically, I'm all for blaming Microsoft.

 

But IMHO Thrustmaster are the ones who have to find a way around the current limitations -- it's not like DirectX suffered from any drastic changes right after the Warthog was announced. Hello, Thrustmaster, how about supporting your hardware well into the future?

[cichlidfan]

Basically, I'm all for blaming Microsoft.

 

I was working in IT, in the 1990's, when my company transitioned from a *NIX based system to PC's on every desk. That was my morning mantra. :D

[Yurgon]

I was working in IT, in the 1990's, when my company transitioned from a *NIX based system to PC's on every desk. That was my morning mantra. :D

 

:D

[Oydoron]

While we're on the subject of things I'm not so happy about with the Warthog, here's my personal list.

 

First of all, the Slew Control is cheap. It's relatively difficult to precisely control the TGP and TAD cursor with it (or any axis, really). This stick/knob is simply too short and it feels cheap. The microstick on the Cougar (the Warthog's predecessor) was way better in terms of feel, feedback and precision. The Slew Cursor on the Warthog is the single most stupid decision IMHO.

 

Second, there's a known problem (no clue whether TM fixed it yet) where the slider-axis on the throttle base (the fake "friction slider") sends irregular output, much like a cheap joystick with bad pots. The problem can be remedied by setting the lights on the throttle base to either off or full on; with any setting in between, the friction slider will be much less precise.

 

Third, both throttle casings are mostly made of plastic. There's no practical downside, it's just that it feels cheap in comparison to all the metal parts.

 

I've gone though the firmware a bit, and I really feel that there is room for improvement. I'm just not sure yet if the way they have done certain things is due to design decisions or hardware limitations.

 

To the "TM: New HOTAS" wishlist, I'll add an easily adjustable Afterburner-detent. The Warthog can be modified so that the throttle incorporates such a detent, but it in order to put it in place, it must be opened (yes, it's very simple, requires an Allen key and maybe 2 minutes or so). It would be amazing if there was a rotary knob or something that could be used to (re-) move the AB-detent, though.

 

Allen key? 2 minutes? As long as you don't tighten it with an allen key, it's just a thumbscrew, the entire process takes less than 30 seconds.

[tintifaxl]

 

As far as I know, DirectX still allows a maximum of 8 axes and 32 buttons per device (DX_X_AXIS, DX_Y_AXIS and so on, DX_BTN1, DX_BTN2 and so on).

 

 

The limits for DirectX are: 8 Axes, 128 Buttons, 1 POV. There was no reason not to support more buttons. If there are compatibility problems with older or sloppy programmed games, TARGET could have implented two modes for the combined stick: a 32 button and a 128 button one.

[Yurgon]

Allen key? 2 minutes? As long as you don't tighten it with an allen key, it's just a thumbscrew, the entire process takes less than 30 seconds.

 

Okay, good to know. Since I mostly fly A/C without afterburner, I've never touched the detent, but with the MiG-21 I might do so.

 

Still, as a feature it would be great if there was a knob or slider to adjust the AB-detent.

 

The limits for DirectX are: 8 Axes, 128 Buttons, 1 POV. There was no reason not to support more buttons. If there are compatibility problems with older or sloppy programmed games, TARGET could have implented two modes for the combined stick: a 32 button and a 128 button one.

 

Now that's quite interesting. Wikipedia agrees with you on the DirectX button limit, Thrustmaster doesn't:

 

DirectX limits

Whatever the number of devices inside the virtual controller, this controller will never be able to declare more axes and DirectX buttons than the official DirectX limits (32 buttons and 8 axes). This simply means that if you have more than 8 axes available on the real controllers, you cannot use all the buttons and axes programmed in the DirectX mode. Any unused axes and buttons in DirectX can be used as digital axes and keystroke generators.

 

So, with 128 buttons we could combine the Warthog (both Throttle and Stick) with a total of 51 buttons AFAIK and two Cougar MFDs with 56 more buttons into a single profile. But add another stick (maybe the Cougar) and the axis-limit is exceeded.

 

Since Microsoft doesn't seem to update DirectX/DirectInput anytime soon, the easiest solution would be if TARGET allowed the creation of multiple virtual devices.

 

And with TARGET's current limitation to 32 DirectX buttons, it's not even practical to have Warthog Stick and Throttle in the same profile. Pretty FUBAR if you ask me.

[tintifaxl]

There are lots of controllers out there, that have more than 32 buttons. Look at Byrdlings controller board, or Derek's button boxes ...

[cichlidfan]

There are lots of controllers out there, that have more than 32 buttons. Look at Byrdlings controller board, or Derek's button boxes ...

 

Two custom devices does not make 'lots'.

[IonicRipper]

Thanks for the info guys, finally pulled the trigger and ordered it!

[IonicRipper]

Is there a way to use all 3 boat switch positions in DCS without TARGET when making a new profile? As it is now, the game only records 2 positions (forward and aft)

[cichlidfan]

Is there a way to use all 3 boat switch positions in DCS without TARGET when making a new profile? As it is now, the game only records 2 positions (forward and aft)

 

Not without modifying lua files.