Kwiatek Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 I trust that Yo-Yo will take little more care here :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Try the same with K-4. In such condtions plane expecially such as warbird or areobatic one will spin. "There is no tendency to spin" http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109E_UKtrials/Morgan.html http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 I found funny video with C-172 get into spin with wrong pilot control reaction :P Remember that even Cessna could kill you if you made mistake at low alt ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 "There is no tendency to spin" http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109E_UKtrials/Morgan.html These is for idle power stall condition. We mostly speak here about accelerated stall and spins in some extreme condtions. Not lazy turns and straight stalls. K-4 is also much more wingloading plane with high power engine. But surly 109 should have more forgiving stall charactersic from all these fighters. Still it doesn't mean that it should be total spin proof ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Higher wing loading largely just means higher stall speed, not different stalling characteristics. With power on conditions, even that is not 100% true since more powerful engines generate more air over the wings -> lower stall speeds. Its not total spin proof, but as close you can get. Heinrich Beauvais, the chief test pilot even tried to spin the thing in the middle of the war , when some pilots. He called them crazy, stating that the thing was as spin proof as it could be (btw this was how it beat the Heinkel rival in the original procurement). Finally the only way he could make it spin was some crazy configuration, as in legs and flaps out and applying full stick near stall... http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted February 19, 2015 ED Team Share Posted February 19, 2015 Remember that even Cessna could kill you if you made mistake at low alt ;) Remember that a Cessna is more designed for straight forward flight, not combat manoeuvres... and Cessna's don't kill people, people kill people (trying to fly a Cessna like a P-51). Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I trust that Yo-Yo will take little more care here Why?? Because you are going to watchdog and be the protector of the FM? Seems to me the guy cares greatly about the accuracy of the FM's and once more....knows what he is doing. Not only that, the team is very good about communicating with the players. This is not some ongoing error, either, Kwaitek. This was tested a few weeks ago and was fine with the exception of one small portion of the envelope due to slip stream effects. In tweaking one behavior with the math...sometime other things crop up. That is how it works. The Spin/stall characteristics have changed in the last few weeks. Sometimes it is like that when working with mathematical models. Give them a chance and be glad you do not get "You is wrong" and defensive behavior. Instead, problems are addressed and the sim moves forward. BTW, when you do get "You is wrong" on these boards...it is very likely....You is Wrong. Most of the discussion I have seen arise from a players misunderstanding and misconception. Still it doesn't mean that it should be total spin proof ) See, like this statement. No aircraft is "spin proof" but some you have to work very hard to get them to spin. It seems to me, the perception of what it means to "work very hard" to enter a spin does not mean anything in your thinking. You thinking "work very hard" means "easy to spin and will get away from you if you are not careful giving constant attention". Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 (btw this was how it beat the Heinkel rival in the original procurement) 109 pilot in prewar test against Heninkel made a few spins into one side and other side and recover :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Why?? Because you are going to watchdog and be the protector of the FM? Seems to me the guy cares greatly about the accuracy of the FM's and once more....knows what he is doing. Not only that, the team is very good about communicating with the players. Give them a chance and be glad you do not get "You is wrong" and defensive behavior. Instead, problems are addressed and the sim moves forward. BTW, when you do get "You is wrong" on these boards...it is very likely....You is Wrong. Most of the discussion I have seen arise from a players misunderstanding and misconception. Becasue i think Yo-Yo got different attitude then some others devs and im belive he want make these sim realistic as posible :) I got high respect for Yo-Yo for his knowledge and effort even here when he answer our qestions and explain some things. So thats why i got trust in him :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlipBall Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 BTW, when you do get "You is wrong" on these boards...it is very likely....You is Wrong. Most of the discussion I have seen arise from a players misunderstanding and misconception. This is why the saying "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"..came to be :P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think many pilots don't even try spin or acceleated stall/spins in their life casue they dont fly into extremum or fly a planes which was forbiden for these. During WW 2 pilots need to fly to the extremum. So for those who never tried spins and minimalize some things i again recomended these video :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaL1NcJs1jw Expecially part at 11:00 min Remember fly smart and don't became a statistic :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 BTW, when you do get "You is wrong" on these boards...it is very likely....You is Wrong. Most people can man up and admit when they are wrong. Then there are people who do the wiggling worm dance to get out of admitting they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 This is why the saying "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"..came to be :P :thumbup: Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Higher wing loading largely just means higher stall speed, not different stalling characteristics. With power on conditions, even that is not 100% true since more powerful engines generate more air over the wings -> lower stall speeds. Its not total spin proof, but as close you can get. Heinrich Beauvais, the chief test pilot even tried to spin the thing in the middle of the war , when some pilots. He called them crazy, stating that the thing was as spin proof as it could be (btw this was how it beat the Heinkel rival in the original procurement). Finally the only way he could make it spin was some crazy configuration, as in legs and flaps out and applying full stick near stall... Exactly. The LE slats are the aerodynamic equivalent of training wheels. There is a reason why most modern fighters use them as well as almost every transport category aircraft in existence in the modern world. Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilum Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Exactly. The LE slats are the aerodynamic equivalent of training wheels. There is a reason why most modern fighters use them as well as almost every transport category aircraft in existence in the modern world. Crumpp, if you are going to give lectures try at least to get it right: Slats and leading edge flaps are quite different beasts and most modern fighters use LE flaps not slats. These LE flaps are there to retain the best possible lift to drag circulation type lift over a wide range of moderate lift coefficients by avoiding leading edge flow separation on the generally sharp leading edges found on a modern fighter type aircraft and they do not have any slot like in a slat system to allow a flow of air from the lower part of the airfoil to energize the flow on the upper part to avoid stall. So on a modern fighter you generally go for a LE flap that is program controlled to work in conjunction with the trailing edge flap to optimize the camber to the current lift coefficient also for lift coefficients well below stall. In addition, while these LE flaps improve roll control they are not instrumental to the maximum lift coefficient and stall limit of a modern fighter since these go to much higher aoa by utilizing vortex lift usually pulled by strakes.Therefore, most modern fighters do not have slats like you claim, they have LE flaps and they were not put there primarily to avoid stalling or spinning. They are there for a totally different reason, namely to optimize camber and avoid LE flow separation at moderate aoa. BTW: Where was it you got your Msc. in aeronautics again? I'm a bit surprised the aerodynamics classes did not cover the differences between slats and LE flaps :smilewink: Edited February 19, 2015 by Pilum Old Crow ECM motto: Those who talk don't know and those who know don't talk........ http://www.crows.org/about/mission-a-history.html Pilum aka Holtzauge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted February 19, 2015 ED Team Share Posted February 19, 2015 Keep it civil boys... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 There wasn't a thing said about LE flaps. As far LE slats, I guess designs like the Eurofighter Typhoon do not count? Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Give them a chance and be glad you do not get "You is wrong" and defensive behavior. Instead, problems are addressed and the sim moves forward. BTW, when you do get "You is wrong" on these boards...it is very likely....You is Wrong. Most of the discussion I have seen arise from a players misunderstanding and misconception. This is why the saying "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"..came to be Resuming these topic i got for you fine sentence from one cleaver man : "Never fall in love with your (mathematical) model. The real system is always right. Simulation is always wrong. The only question is by how much " If mathematical code for any sim would be a perfect copy real world any devs would be take the advice of real life pilots :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlipBall Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Resuming these topic i got for you fine sentence from one cleaver man : "Never fall in love with your (mathematical) model. The real system is always right. Simulation is always wrong. The only question is by how much " If mathematical code for any sim would be a perfect copy real world any devs would be take the advice of real life pilots :) Ha ha good one!...I did not mean to offend you I was only trying to be funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlipBall Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 The problem with pilot accounts is that memories change and are lost or become inaccurate over a period of time. And like someone telling a how big fish story, they tend to embellish the facts, which is just human nature found in us all...just look at Brian Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Found the reference for the spinning characteristics in an old txt file of a forum post - albeit with the source clearly given. The pilot was Karl Baur, Chief Test Pilot for Messerschmitt.but nevertheless, here is what he said on 109 spins. Word came from the Luftwaffe out of Antwerp early in the spring of 1943 that many pilots had experienced spin problems with the Me109 G and had to bail out. Numerous airplanes had been lost. Karl Baur's first reaction: "This is almost a foolproof airplane. How do these guys accomplish that?" The Me 109 had a relatively high wing loading (32.2 lb/sq ft) and therefore stalled readily under heavy G forces but the stall was gentle and the aircraft exhibited good control under G forces. If the stick was eased forward the aircraft immediately unstalled with no tendency to flick over on its back and spin. While not totally spin proof it took a fairly ham fisted pilot to get into trouble in the Me 109. It took Karl several nerve wracking flights before he was able to get a Me 109 into a spin. Finally, after he had tried every possible dog fight maneuver, he had it figured out. It was during those split seconds before going into a vertical dive that it was possible to get this airplane to spin. Only rough flying inexperienced pilots were able to do it. Karl's solution to the problem was very simple. He advised: "Drop the landing gear boys, and the spin will end immediately." The dropped landing gear would appear to lower the airspeed and reduce the severity of the yaw (the movement around the normal axis of the aircraft, i.e. direction stability). Once the aircraft is not spinning (yawning) around its center of gravity the aircraft being in a nose down attitude accelerates and becomes unstalled. Source p.86 of: A Pilot's Pilot Karl Baur Chief Test Pilot for Messerschmitt by Isolde Baur http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedSquirrel Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 You spin me right round baby Good to hear YoYo is working on it I noticed the prop planes don't have much of a spin tendency. I just figure there were still some beta WIP aspects of these aircraft. I can still lose control and 'stall' but none of the aircraft carry on into a flat spin. A good example is this video of me flying in the fw190. This is about as close as I've been able to get the 190 to a spin. 1:40 at 1:40, I pull up and do some silly maneuvers to try and get the p51 to overshoot. The plane goes into an uncontrolled barrel roll instead of a flat spin. Oh well... on the plus side, the Su27 with it's new AFM has a tendency to fall into an inverted flat spin with no energy and it feels authentic. Hopefully this work translates to other aircraft over time. :thumbup: Modules: A10C, AV8, M2000C, AJS-37, MiG-21, MiG-19, MiG-15, F86F, F5E, F14A/B, F16C, F18C, P51, P47, Spitfire IX, Bf109K, Fw190-D, UH-1, Ka-50, SA342 Gazelle, Mi8, Christian Eagle II, CA, FC3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpp Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I noticed the prop planes don't have much of a spin tendency. There is a track of the FW190 entering left and right, power on and power off spins included at the beginning of the thread. Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) In DCS you could do many crazy stall manouvers close to ground and not afraid that your plane will spin. IRL such manouvers would end in spin and crash. And game over :) Read again manual for IRL P-51 (section about power on spins) or even DCS K-4 manual. Power on snap rolls or spins are generally prohibited and at low alt are expecially dangerous casue it surly lead to spin ( or flat spin) which was not so fast to recover. ( In P-51 manual is that if you dont choop throttle in power on spin there is hardly to recover) Power off stall and spin of course are different case - it was easy and more quickly to recover. From my personal experience e.x with ZLin 526 after one or two full spin i need at least 1/2 spin before plane will recover, after 3 full spins i need at least one full spin before plane stop rotation. Aerobatic planes got bigger control area ( rudder also). Warbirds are much more heavy ( more interia) and not such big controls area. Edited February 20, 2015 by Kwiatek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I noticed the prop planes don't have much of a spin tendency. There is a track of the FW190 entering left and right, power on and power off spins included at the beginning of the thread. He didn't say they wouldn't spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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