[REPORTED] Flaps Down Warning sound

[Crumpp]

Couldn't the logic simply be to "alert" the pilot for the fact that flaps were deployed, and gear up, no matter in what phase of flight?

 

 

.........if in the heat of the combat, used during tight turns, it would alert the pilot for the need to clean the aircraft again when possible ...

 

It becomes a "flaps are down warning" and not a landing gear warning.

 

That is why the gear warning horn is required to only go off in the landing configuration and why it is generally linked to throttle position or airspeed as well as a flap setting.

 

Gear warning systems are designed to initiate a reaction from the pilot of "Oops, I am landing and my gear is not down....fix it or go around!" Not..."I wish they that annoying horn would shut off."

[MFG62 Joker]

Reworked wiring diagram for K4 contains this horn and all circuit.

 

All the statements of Crumpp sound logically correct. But since there is a wiring diagram for the K4, all we need to do is: follow that.

And yes Crumpp you are right, the system may not be outright what one would logically think it should be.

But if there is valid documentation that´s all we need, agree?

[Flagrum]

Crumpp, as it was said already, your position on this matter is an "educated guess" - worth discussing, but not proof of anything. The maintenance manual of the G model stated that the horn is only wired to the flaps and to the landing gear. While this has also no real bearing on how the K was configured, it indicates at least that your 14 CFR 23.729 is not as universal and timeless as you might think.

 

Yes, what you say does make a lot of sense, but no, "making sense" is (sadly) not always what regulations, procedures or rules are made of. :o)

[Derbysieger]

We know from the G2 Series manual that in these Bf 109s the horn came on after a normal take off with 20° flaps as soon as the pilot raised the landing gear, up until he raised the flaps. So the assumption that it's purely a system to warn the pilot about flaps without the gear being down and locked, regardless of throttle setting, seems reasonable:

 

6. Fahrwerk einziehen.

Sicherung des Fahrwerksschalters nach unten drücken, dann den mit "Flug" bezeichneten roten Knopf drücken.

Sollte der Knopf nach dem einfahren nicht zurückspringen dann ziehen.

Rastet das Fahrwerk nicht richtig ein, Knopf nochmals drücken.

Noteinfahren ist nicht möglich.

Stetige Anzeige der Fahrwerksstellung durch den mechanischen Fahrwerksanzeiger.

7. Vierlampengerät beobachten:

Rot = vollständig eingezogen,

Grün = ausgefahren verriegelt.

Die Lichtzeichen lassen sich am Vierlampengerät ausschalten; beim Ausfahren der Landeklappen leuchten sie von selbst wieder auf.

8. Signalhorn ertönt, wenn das Fahrwerk nicht mehr eingerastet ist und gleichzeitig die Landeklappen angestellt sind.

Das Horn ist nur im Leerlauf gut zu hören.

9. Landeklappen ganz zurückstellen (Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung von 250km/h bei angestellten Landeklappen beachten!).

Lastigkeitsänderungen durch Trimmung ausgleichen.

quoted a little bit more to give this quote that's been discussed on the last pages more context.

 

in short:

6. Retract landing gear and make sure it's locked. There is no emergency retract.

7. Watch the gear lights.

Red = completely retracted

Green = down and locked.

Lamps can be switched off but will come on once you deploy flaps

8.Horn will come on once gear isn't down and locked and flaps are down. Signal horn is only clearly to hear in idle.

9. retract flaps (keep in mind the speed limit of 250km/h with flaps deployed).

Trim the aircraft.

 

Again, it's from the part of the manual describing a normal take off with 20° flaps. There is absolutely no reason to mention the horn at this point in the manual if it doesn't come on. It seems more like this is a warning about using flaps without gear down rather than the gear down warning linked to throttle you seem to expect.

 

Also, Yo-Yo appears to have the wiring diagram for this system on the K-4 so either it's already correctly modeled and only the sound needs to be adjusted (which seems likely based on his comment) or it will be corrected.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Derbysieger

[Crumpp]

regardless of throttle setting

 

Das Horn ist nur bei Leerlauf gut zu hören.

 

MMMM..certainly NOT regardless of throttle setting. :thumbup:

[NineLine]

MMMM..certainly NOT regardless of throttle setting. :thumbup:

 

As a non-german speaker I can concede that it could be taken either way, throttle position or cockpit noise levels. Regardless, if Yo-Yo says they have wiring diagrams I have to believe ED got it right based on that and only a volume tweak needs to be made.

[Crumpp]

I agree Sithspawn. There is no reason to believe Yo-Yo will not get it right.

 

That characteristic of the horn not being audible except at low power settings is what makes it a landing gear warning system, irregardless of the installation details.

 

It is an important distinction.

[MFG62 Joker]

why do you insist riding a dead horse?

:music_whistling:

 

As a german native speaker I can tell you for sure it says the horn is sounding but may be not audible clearly.

 

Try to hear yourself whisteling while AC/DC is playing live next to you ...

[Derbysieger]

No Crumpp, we already established that that does NOT mean that it is only on in idle, just that it is only clearly to hear in idle. Are you implying that I don't know my mother tongue?

[Crumpp]

why do you insist riding a dead horse?

:music_whistling:

 

As a german native speaker I can tell you for sure it says the horn is sounding but may be not audible clearly.

 

Try to hear yourself whisteling while AC/DC is playing live next to you ...

 

only clearly to hear in idle

 

There is no dead horse being beaten. Is it really this hard to understand you are making the same point I am???

 

It should not be...the english is clear my friend!! :smilewink:

 

Crumpp says:

That characteristic of the horn not being audible except at low power settings is what makes it a landing gear warning system, irregardless of the installation details.

 

Crumpp says:

A case could be made that the Bf-109 fulfills requirement number one by a "calibrated" volume that can only be heard when the power is reduced. If so, that is not the most elegant solution. That point would have considerable variation and would mean power was applied to the horn for much longer than necessary. You would be replacing horns much more often if it works that way. It is just too easy to put a switch on the airspeed or throttle to complete the warning horns circuit so that it works at a precise point. That is what most aircraft do.

Edited March 25, 2015 by NineLine
Removed OT reply

[Derbysieger]

Crumpp, the whole point of #8 in the take off section is to tell the pilot that the horn is on once he retracts the gear. The part you take as "the horn is only on in idle" really just means that it is hard to hear the horn over the engine noise, not that the horn doesn't sound.

 

Do you think your German is better than that of all the native Germans that have come forward to correct you?

Edited March 25, 2015 by Derbysieger

[NineLine]

Ok guys, we are going round and round. This is what I am going to do with this. The current function appears to be correct based on ED having a wiring diagram for the K-4. The volume of the buzzer seems to be too loud, and needs to be adjusted so it is not heard (mostly) at high RPMs.