How to learn to dogfight

[BadHabit]

I would never force my self in a sustained turning fight. Even if u win u've lost critical energy and ur escape window, except ur are alone in the universe with that guy and u want to sacrifice ur adv for a 50-50 mind game

 

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[westr]

If you are in a sustained turn in an FW-190 invariably your airspeed will drop and you will enter into the arena where a mustang can take advantage. Very difficult to maintain high airspeeds in a sustained turn.

[ekg]

How do you shake a mustang off your six?

[fastfreddie]

How do you shake a mustang off your six?

 

Maintain altitude so you can dive away if you get into trouble. Use small maneuvers with the Dora's roll rate to evade the Mustang.

 

Here I video I posted awhile back where I had to evade a pair of Mustangs twice in one flight.

 

[ame]

[/ame]

[Cripple]

Maintain altitude so you can dive away if you get into trouble. Use small maneuvers with the Dora's roll rate to evade the Mustang.

 

Here I video I posted awhile back where I had to evade a pair of Mustangs twice in one flight.

 

 

So, how much sweat was pouring off you at 6-minutes-plus mark? :P

 

You make another good point in that video: know where your nearest friendlies are, and head that-a-way. Even if you don't get any direct support, it can cause a cautious pursuer to break off.

[fastfreddie]

So, how much sweat was pouring off you at 6-minutes-plus mark? :P

 

You make another good point in that video: know where your nearest friendlies are, and head that-a-way. Even if you don't get any direct support, it can cause a cautious pursuer to break off.

 

:)

 

It should also be said that you have to be very careful when engaging any groups or pairs of Mustangs online. Most of them are on teamspeak together and have been flying together for quite awhile. Either take one out very quickly or have a great altitude and speed advantage so you can break off quickly. Unfortunately fighting the AI offline will not give you the tools or practice required to be successful online against real opponents. They will use different tactics for dodging attacks that require you to learn deflection shooting and its something that you will need to practice all the time. I haven't flown the Dora much in the last year but you need to use speed, patience, and have great situational awareness to determine what to do next.

[Crumpp]

This brings us to the subject of performance data. Once your cosy dogfighting lessons over your home airfield end performance data are of crucial importance. Unfortunately these are hard to find, especially the sets presenting comparison data of most common adversaries.

 

Exactly. The hardest part of doing the math is finding good data. My comparison is based off NAA and Focke Wulf data as much as possible.

 

Echo38 says:

Unless I'm grossly mistaken: when comparing sustained turns, if FW 190 has the same rate of turn as P-51, but only when FW 190 is turning at a higher airspeed than P-51, then P-51 has a smaller turning circle, netting an advantage.

 

First of all let me say I have been getting my behind kicked since the last update. Even when up against a Mustang with only 40% fuel just to see what is going on. That is a 650lb weight saving. Run the math on that and Dora easily out-turns the Mustang. Unfortunately it did not work out that way and I was out-turned in less than two turns on the deck where the Dora should have it greatest advantage.

 

Flight Model? I don't think so....

 

My controller was spiking very very badly. I had to reload CH manager, recalibrate everything, and redo my control profiles in DCS. Now it is working again, I think! I had to go to work so I cannot get online and try it out.

 

Now let's talk reality of the math and science and what the Dora's advantages mean.

 

The sustained Rate of Turn advantage gives an large edge to the Dora. It is not dominance but niether does the Mustang dominate the Dora.

 

Rate of turn is what wins angle fights. How fast can you get your guns around the circle to kill the other aircraft.

 

Radius only wins if you as the pilot allow it. If you try to match the Mustangs radius, you cannot do it in a Dora and will bleed your airspeed. Mustang wins.

 

You as a pilot are your own worst enemy. You have two absolutely winning advantages over the Mustang. First is your rate is slightly better. You move the points of the compass faster than he does but not by much.

 

You have got to lag pursuit and ignore that turn radius. Staring at the Mustangs tail will get you killed. You have got to be disciplined and keep your cool. Resist the urge to tighten the turn to match his radius. If you see the rate slowing down, relax the back-pressure to keep your speed up. Airplanes accelerate just fine in a turn given a little back pressure reduction. Ask anyone who has taken a check-ride and had to perform steep turns. There is a reason why the FAA has a speed standard.

 

Which brings us to the next advantage, the Dora Rate Turn advantage comes at a faster speed so if the Mustang slows down to try and match your turn rate, you have a sizable margin of speed over him. You can break off and get away. In other-words, you dictate the fight.

 

Lastly, the Dora is more agile at dog-fighting speeds than the Mustang. Use that roll rate. It is scary the first few times and you might get shot down until you master it but it does work.

 

If I do a lag roll offline against the ACE AI, I kill him one turn. I haven't tried online yet but I plan to get together with a friend and try it.

 

Snap rolls and 1G rolls (energy neutral btw) work great as defensive maneuvers in DCS in the Dora. I have used snap rolls and put two Mustangs working together online on the Defensive, surviving to break off the combat. If the guy is near co-energy, it is a great way to force the overshoot. Mustangs are not very good at snap rolling and do not slow down easily. If the Mustang is barreling down from an altitude advantage, 1G roll and screw up his aim, preserve your energy, and get on his tail when he overshoots.

 

The P-51 Mustang and FW-190D9 are very different aircraft but as evenly matched as you can get as dog-fighters.

 

Lastly there is the "cheating factor" I call it. I learned about the 40% fuel thing because I got out-turned much quicker in another fight than should have been possible. I asked and the gentleman was nice enough to tell me he was only taking 40% fuel. Very gamey online practice.

 

In reality, the only time you have too much fuel on board an airplane is if you are on fire.

[Crumpp]

BTW,

 

All the Focke Wulf drivers I have taked too, (Oskar Boesch and Erich Rudorffer) all said they turned against the american fighters as a practice.

 

Oskar credits the turn ability and low level speed of the FW-190A8 with saving his life over the Ardennes. They got bounced by ~60 Mustangs and Oskar spotted them at the last second. He did a break turn and warned his comrades on the radio but it was too late for most of them.

 

Robert Bailey, a well-known and respected aviation artist, has painted an exceptional picture of Oskar’s FW 190, titled War Wolf. War Wolf puts us a few hundred feet above the treetops of the German/ Belgium border at 11:15 a.m. on 27th December 1944. Eleven FW 190s of IV. Gruppe, Jaggeschwader 3 “Udet,” led by Lt. Glaubig, were flying over the Eifel at low level to avoid radar. Patton’s Third Army had broken through The Bulge and Oskar’s Staffel was assigned to attack them. His Staffel was jumped by 50+ P-51s, probably from the 352nd FG. Six Luftwaffe pilots were shot down, while Oskar got away and was credited with one Mustang victory. With many bullet holes in his FW-190, he returned to base.

 

http://www.argunners.com/luftwaffe-ace-oskar-bosch-with-18-victories/

 

Maybe Yo-Yo can ask Eric the next time he talks to him if he hasn't already.

[whiteladder]

I used to fly Fw190 almost exclusively when I flew Oleg Maddox sims and my advice would be the following:

 

Keeping sight, if you are using energy tactic this can be more of a problem than if you are using an angles fight. You will tend to have a greater distance between you any your target at some points in the fight compared with the angles fight, there will probably be a difference in altitude, invariably you will be looking over your shoulder, down on a target that is lower than you trying to pick it out of the ground textures..

 

The constraints of the viewing system of the sim will make it almost impossible to keep a constant track of the enemy. I think the most important thing to do is not keep track of the target, but to keep a visualisation of what the target is doing in relation to its background, be that the ground or the sky (clouds , sun). It is very easy to concentrate on the target and not what it is doing in the environment, when you then lose sight it makes it all the harder to scan the right area to pick it up again.

 

As regarding if you should be using energy or angles (Turn fight tactics) it is not as simple as saying the FW190 is an energy fighter, therefore never enter the turn. At the moment we have a limit aircraft set, but when we get more aircraft, I would never consider fighting angles with a Spit, but I definitely would with a p-47. The tactics you use should be appropriate for the opponent you face, not the perceive strength or weakness of your own aircraft.

Edited November 30, 2015 by whiteladder

[Solty]

@CRUMP

When the bandit is coming 6 high at high speed, and you are at your cruise speed, of course you instantaneous turn will be tighter. Therefore "outturning" the Mustang. But when both Mustang and Dora speed drop, the 190 becomes worse and worse. In a sustained fight, you can't outturn the P-51D in the 190.

 

Not a single other sim had modeled it differently, and I suspect that DCS is exactly the same (just more detailed).

 

Use the plane to what it was designed to do. It has good instantaneous turn at higher speeds and can cut into some maneuvers of the P51, but otherwsie the P51D should be able to outturn the 190.

 

190 should never fight in horisontal turn fights with anything realy. I wouldn't even try with a Mosquito. Use the 190's ROLL RATE and quick short turns at high speed to make him overshoot and/or get him to scissors, in which 190 is way better.:joystick:

Edited November 30, 2015 by Solty

[Crumpp]

Solty...branch out and learn about the other aircraft too! The P-51 is my favorite too. That being said, I know how to run the math when it comes to aircraft performance.

 

Yo-Yo says:

 

About the total turn capabilities. IN DCS Dora can steady turn having more g-load than P-51. If someone can not outturn P-51 it is not because of better Mustang's steady turn rate but because of misunderstanding how these two planes differ in their turn ability.

 

 

As P-51 has lower wing loading and almost the same maximal lift as Dora it has advantage in turn rate and turn radius in low speed range. Its thrust limited steady turn is worse than D9 turn at higher speed.

So, if Dora begins to play on Mustang's field it won't win turnfight.

THese pictures are for 61" 3000 for P-51 and Sondernotleistung for Dora. Start- und Notleistung gives the same type of advantage but not so much.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2369933&postcount=105

[Crumpp]

190 should never fight in horisontal turn fights with anything realy.

 

No, real airplanes are flown by their performance numbers.

 

 

If you want to win turn fights like it was done in reality...learn to fly the aircraft like a real pilot.

[Solty]

Solty...branch out and learn about the other aircraft too! The P-51 is my favorite too. That being said, I know how to run the math when it comes to aircraft performance.

 

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2369933&postcount=105

And yet, at the same time that you are saying so, you are posting this:

Since the last update you will not have a problem. The P-51 turns like a Japanese Zeke.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2572131&postcount=20

 

Now explain, because either you do not understand the dynamic, and do not see the difference between instantaneous turn and sustained one, or you are just misunderstanding what I have said.

 

As YOYO said. P-51 has lower wing loading and for the same lift. So that you are going to turn at slower speeds better in the P51.

As P-51 has lower wing loading and almost the same maximal lift as Dora it has advantage in turn rate and turn radius in low speed range.

[Crumpp]

Not a single other sim had modeled it differently

 

BTW...Anybody know the stall speed of the FW-190? Any of them...

 

Anton...Dora????

 

Oh yeah, it is not available. Where you set the stall speed makes a huge difference in the math.

 

My analysis is set off the CLmax used by Focke Wulf in their engineering of the aircraft. Yo-Yo's matches close enough to return the same results for the system he is using because it appears he used some very good educated assumptions and detective work. He knows his stuff.

 

That is assuming he is not holding out on an unnamed original source.

 

The fact the end results agree within significant digits and relative performance is all that matters.

[Crumpp]

Read the entire answer and do not just take away selective portions.

 

As P-51 has lower wing loading and almost the same maximal lift as Dora it has advantage in turn rate and turn radius in low speed range.

 

And yet, at the same time that you are saying so, you are posting this:

 

Really?? Aren't you being somewhat selective in your information gathering?

 

I had a controller problem which is why I did not start a thread in the BUG section, Solty. I was also joking with a new member of the community and did not know you were lurking in the shadows ready to have it take on some other meaning.

 

Instead, I played for a few days and checked out every other possibility hence no bug report.

 

Trust me, if the Mustang started suddenly being unable to competitively dogfight or match its performance numbers...that would also be a BUG.

 

I don't know if you follow some of the threads in the community but more than one update has introduced errors and behaviors not intended by Yo-Yo.

[Crumpp]

Solty says:

you are just misunderstanding what I have said.

 

Am I? You were making a statement that the Dora cannot win a sustained turn fight against the P-51, right?

 

 

Solty says:

 

In a sustained fight, you can't outturn the P-51D in the 190.

 

 

The statement above says that specifically and just as specifically it is not correct.

 

Yo-Yo says:

IN DCS Dora can steady turn having more g-load than P-51. If someone can not outturn P-51 it is not because of better Mustang's steady turn rate but because of misunderstanding how these two planes differ in their turn ability.

 

The Dora has a better sustained turn rate than the Mustang. If you are not winning sustained turn fights against the Mustang in the Dora, it is because you do not understand where these aircraft realize their best sustained turn performance.

 

Not a single word about instantaneous turn performance is mentioned. That is a different condition of flight.

[Spectrum Legacy]

Thanks for the insight Crumpp, always a pleasure to read!

 

It's refreshing, because I always got frowned upon when I defended manoeuvre like e.g. snap-roll in the past decade in different flight simulators, as the vocal minority called it a fancy gimmick at best. After a while I've realized that they frown the most simply when they don't want to get out of their rails, or simply when they can't keep up :D

 

Aside from that, most of the good advice was already mentioned in this thread. I can only add that I had more success in the Dora when fixing the gunsight, than with using the gyro (but your mileage might vary). Also I don't bother to waste cannon ammo at long/medium ranges and high deflections, opting for mg-only instead until I get close to add a short burst of cannon fire (although Dora has plenty of ammo, so you don't really have to skimp as much as with any 109 version really).

[Cripple]

:)

 

It should also be said that you have to be very careful when engaging any groups or pairs of Mustangs online...

 

Personally I'm wary of engaging two or more of anything flying about online, mainly for the reasons already stated - they'll be on voice chat and know what they are doing.

 

Hell, I'd rather pick off loner stragglers or maybe try for the wingman if an enemy pair has already engaged. It might not exactly be "cricket", but...

 

 

 

OP: have you seen this?

[ame]

[/ame]

[Solty]

Am I? You were making a statement that the Dora cannot win a sustained turn fight against the P-51, right?

 

 

 

 

The statement above says that specifically and just as specifically it is not correct.

 

 

 

The Dora has a better sustained turn rate than the Mustang. If you are not winning sustained turn fights against the Mustang in the Dora, it is because you do not understand where these aircraft realize their best sustained turn performance.

 

Not a single word about instantaneous turn performance is mentioned. That is a different condition of flight.

LOL. You are the one complaining about Dora turn rate and speed beeing to low. And brining pilot's anecdotes to the discussion saying that it turns way worse it "should", in your perception of things. Let me quote you:

BTW,

 

All the Focke Wulf drivers I have taked too, (Oskar Boesch and Erich Rudorffer) all said they turned against the american fighters as a practice.

 

Oskar credits the turn ability and low level speed of the FW-190A8 with saving his life over the Ardennes. They got bounced by ~60 Mustangs and Oskar spotted them at the last second. He did a break turn and warned his comrades on the radio but it was too late for most of them.

 

 

 

To me the Flight Model of both seems to be correct when it comes to turn performance. I have never had a problem with turning against the 190.

[Crumpp]

LOL. You are the one complaining about Dora turn rate and speed beeing to low. And brining pilot's anecdotes to the discussion saying that it turns way worse it "should", in your perception of things. Let me quote you

 

Please quote where I make any complaint about the FM, Solty. You are way too sensitive and very selective in the information you process. Relax and have fun. :thumbup:

 

All I did was answer Echo38's questions. So put the anecdotes in context of my answer to Echo38. They simply confirm in real world experience what the math and science already tell us. Our physics model works! :music_whistling:

 

Read:

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2572940&postcount=32

[Crumpp]

Thanks for the insight Crumpp, always a pleasure to read!

 

It's refreshing, because I always got frowned upon when I defended manoeuvre like e.g. snap-roll in the past decade in different flight simulators, as the vocal minority called it a fancy gimmick at best. After a while I've realized that they frown the most simply when they don't want to get out of their rails, or simply when they can't keep up :D

 

Aside from that, most of the good advice was already mentioned in this thread. I can only add that I had more success in the Dora when fixing the gunsight, than with using the gyro (but your mileage might vary). Also I don't bother to waste cannon ammo at long/medium ranges and high deflections, opting for mg-only instead until I get close to add a short burst of cannon fire (although Dora has plenty of ammo, so you don't really have to skimp as much as with any 109 version really).

 

Thank you. Good advice. I go back and forth on the gun site. Trying to learn the EZ42 and I find you have to set up the altitude compensators correctly. I have definitely had more success with the fixed site though so I have to agree but it is very satisfying to get a kill with both the KG14 and EZ42 gyro sites.

 

I nailed a Mustang at maximum range running for base a few days ago. I could not believe it worked! He did not know I was there so I carefully adjusted the site, let off a good squirt, and took his wing off.

 

Snap rolls are a great defensive maneuver especially if you get bounced when your out of options. They take practice but pay off when needed. There is nothing in DCS that can follow a Dora's snap roll. Snap rolls are brutal on an airframe which is why they were prohibited maneuvers on some World War II aircraft. I have an anecdote somewhere at home of an FW190 pilot in the Mediterranean theater. He got bounced by Spitfire, snap rolled and shot the Spitfire down on the overshoot.

 

Have you tried the lag displacement rolls? It seems to work very well in DCS offline. It puts the Dora pilot in a position you do not have to worry about accounting for the radius, offsets the angles, and allows your Rate advantage to eat up an opponent.

[Crumpp]

Snap rolls are a prohibited maneuver in the P-51D Mustang. Most attempts end in a power on spin.

 

[Echo38]

Ah, that's from the USAAF manual, right? Counter-intuitive, but those aren't very reliable sources for everything; lots of errors in them, because some of the people involved in the making of them weren't very familiar with the aircraft.

 

Some examples: in the USAAF P-38 manual, the MIL power speed is listed as the WEP speed; recommended cruise settings were very inefficient compared to Lindburg's; rolls into a dead engine were forbidden (Lockheed test pilot Tony Levier later had to go from airbase to airbase, proving to the pilots via aerial demonstration that rolls & other aerobatics were possible to perform safely with one engine feathered), etc. There are plenty more, but the latter alone is a good enough example; just because the USAAF manuals say that a maneuver is not possible to safely perform in a particular aircraft, does not mean that it was so.

 

Some of the guys writing the USAAF manuals had few hours in the aircraft, being more bureaucrat than pilot. So, I read that as, "No power-on spins or snap rolls are permitted, as it is impossible for the author to do a good snap roll and most of the author's attempts end up in a power spin."

 

I'm not one to trust a flight sim over a reliable real-world source, but in the case of the USAAF manuals, since they have proven to be unreliable, I'd believe DCS over the USAAF manual, unless cross-referencing (with a source not derived from the manual) indicates that the manual is accurate, in the matter in question. If Eagle Dynamics model the P-51 as capable of snap-rolling, I assume they have a good source (e.g. NACA) that backs that modelling up. Yo-Yo, if you're reading this, can you comment?

Edited December 1, 2015 by Echo38

[Solty]

Yep, the snap roll was performed by some pilots during combat. For example Lt. Col. Donald Bryan used it twice during one fight to shake off the 109 on his back.

[MiloMorai]

Scroll down to pg 78

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34811808/North-American-P-51-Mustang-Pilot-Training-Manual#scribd