Crazy Egyptian pilot's maneuver

[Elefant1301]

Hi fellows,

 

I guess most of you heard about this dogfight during the Yom Kippur war in 1973 during which an Israeli Mirage III and an Egyptian Mig-21PF fought.

An episode of the Dogfights series depicts this particular event, when the Mig-21 being chased by the Mirage made a desperate maneuver to evade the fight. The maneuver, quite well-known, a split-S was attempted at a very low altitude (ca. 3000 ft) while the safe value found in the Mig-21 manuals was set at 6500 ft.

It seems that the Egyptian made it and managed to recover the plane just before crashing on the ground. Unfortunatly for him, the Mirage shot him while he was just a sitting duck with no energy.

No political debat here, just a question.

Has anybody here tried to reproduce the maneuver at this altitude ?

 

I know it is not the same plane nor the same engine but before the latest patch, I made many attempts and with the former FM, I managed to "survive" a split-S engaged at about 3500ft. Too bad I didn't save the track.

Yesterday, I tried again but the new FM didn't allow me to repeat it. The lowest and safest starting point was about 5000ft.

 

My "recipe" was to begin the split at about 600kph IAS, throttle on idle and AB when the pitch is approaching 0° at the end of the maneuver.

 

I'd be curious to read your experience about that.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Elefant1301

[sissypilot]

No idle, to maintain high AOA you need thrust. Try start at 500 IAS bring the plane to high AOA horizontally (as if you started a violent turn let speed drop to 450-470) and just then start to roll over when at high AOA (maintain high AOA with fully back stick).

[Elefant1301]

Ok I'll give it a try this way, thanks.

You tried at what altitude ?

[Elefant1301]

Here is my latest try.

I followed your advice and it seems it worked pretty nicely (even if it wasn't 3000ft)

:smilewink:

crazy_egyptian_pilot.trk

[sissypilot]

I dont exactly remeber but I managed to go down to very "unreal" altitudes before the patch. Now with the patch it is more realistic I guess. The plane is still suspicously agile at around 500IAS with afterburner on it turns on a dime. I have never flown a real mig but I doubt that it was that agile.

[CoBlue]

Here's some interesting read about that particular split-S from 3000'.

[Elefant1301]

Yup, it is this doc that gave me the idea to "test" the maneuver abilities of the DCS Mig.

 

:thumbup:

[Pirke77]

[Pirke77]

[Pirke77]

[GGTharos]

It's quite interesting indeed, as in 'fishy'. Some 'facts' seem to be taken out of fairy tale books, and others are heavily mis-interpreted. It's an amateur write-up, but there are a few interesting facts written up in it.

 

Here's some interesting read about that particular split-S from 3000'.

[yufighter]

Hej Pirke svaka cast, Za ove dve godine od kako se pojavio, niko nije vise izvukao iz let lampe od tebe.:thumbup:

Svojevremeno je i na F15 ovako leteo, koliko se secam, Riki.:pilotfly:

[Pirke77]

Ovo je simulator pa mozes da testiras do mile volje :) Da bi radio ovakva testiranja u pravom trebaju golema MUDA pored znanja :)

[yufighter]

Onom egipcaninu nije padalo na pamet nikakvo testiranje vec da izvuce zivu glavu, a o MUDIMA kod borbenih pilota ne treba ni pricati.

PS

Sreca sto nas admin ne razume pa nas nece upozoriti na nekulturno izrazavanje, ali MUDA su MUDA:megalol:

Edited September 7, 2016 by yufighter

[Falcon_S]

...Svojevremeno je i na F15 ovako leteo, koliko se secam, Riki.:pilotfly:

 

Who is Riki? Riki in F15C??? Nope! :lol:

 

Pirke, old ace... bravo. :thumbup:

 

Sreca sto nas admin ne razume pa nas nece upozoriti na nekulturno izrazavanje, ali MUDA su MUDA:megalol

 

Ne brini, prevesce neko pa ces kod Hajduka na Sud Casti ko RIKI onomad. :megalol:

Edited September 7, 2016 by Falcon_S

[Pirke77]

Onom egipcaninu nije padalo na pamet nikakvo testiranje vec da izvuce zivu glavu, a o MUDIMA kod borbenih pilota ne treba ni pricati.

 

Naprotiv ima snimak I intervju tog egipcanina koji je pretekao ovo :)

Covek kaze da su to vezbali I danju I nocu I zvali su ga manevar smrti :)

Tj nije ovo ocajnicki potez vec uvezbani manevar :) Evo clanak :)

 

http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot.rs/2009/10/egyptian-crazy-pilot.html

 

 

The Egyptian Crazy Pilot

 

This is a very popular video in Youtube among Egyptians and Arabs , it is known as the Egyptian Crazy Pilot , it was taken from a History channel TV series “Dog fight” in “DOGFIGHTS OF THE HOLY LAND” episode “Second season” {It was aired on the 10th of August 2007}

 

Now that Egyptian crazy pilot has a specific name and it is Hassan Salem El-Rafai and he is still alive unlike what was mentioned in the History Channel , this was not a desperate adventure of a mad Egyptian pilot with his poor MIG-21 , this was among the maneuvers the Egyptian pilots were trained for months on it . They already learnt from the Pakistani pilots in Syria , yup you are reading right.

 

The Egyptian pilot used this maneuver to escape from the IAF and he had been trained on it day and night , yet it is very hard and was known among the Egyptian fleet as the death maneuver.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Pirke77

[yufighter]

[Pirke77]

Bravo ;) Samo na kraju kad prodjes horizontalu slobodno ga slomi u maximalni napadni ugao tj palica na stomak ;)

[Pirke77]

Zavisno od kolicine goriva i naoruzanja pomera se minimalna visina za prevrtanje ;) U igri bez naoruzanja i sa 10% goriva moze i sa oko 800m ;) Nisam probao koliko je minimalno goriva potrebno za manevar a da ti se ne ugasi motor ;) Ali ako je oko 5% ili manje onda mogu da se spustaju granice jos nize od 800m ;) Dezurni sam danas ajd sutra ako nadjem vremena pokusacu taj experiment ;)

[yufighter]

Najveci problem je snimanje u DCS-u. Track fajl veoma cesto ne odgovara orginalu pogotovo u ekstremnim situacijama. Par puta ja odradim i vezane, dva-tri, manevre ali kada pustim track fajl on me za 200m ili podigao ili spustio i crash odmah na pocetku. Otprilike sa 60% goriva moze da se prodje sa oko 900m gubitka visine. Razumem te za max napadni ugao evo pogledaj na sledecem track-u sam to radio u drugom manevru tokom ovog leta. U prvom mi je bilo dovoljno 915 metara. Na ovom primeru se vidi ono sto sam rekao o manama snimanja u DCS-u. Na Tacview snimku se vidi da sam sleteo i parkirao se izmedju dve gazele, kako je i bilo u stvarnosti, a na track-u sam prilikom sletanja opicio u neku kucu.:pilotfly:

Manevar smrti-20160911-111606-DCS.trk

Manevar smrti-20160911-111606-DCS.txt.zip

Edited September 12, 2016 by yufighter

[Fox One]

 

People are taking this flight model way waaaaaaaay too seriously. During that split-S in external view you can see the maximum true AOA during maneuver was 14-15deg.

 

The attached diagram is from MiG-29 aerodynamics manual. It shows altitude loss during split-S, but look what they say below diagram: this is for performing the maneuver with 24 deg AOA (or 9G at high speeds).

 

So the MiG-29 will split-S loosing 1000 meters altitude performing the maneuver with 24 deg AOA, but the MiG-21 is able to do it with an AOA of only 14-15deg. Well, that is quite an achievement!

 

This means the MiG-21's lift coefficient at 15 deg AOA is as big as MiG-29's lift coefficient at 24 deg AOA, which is beyond completely crazy.

[yufighter]

If you look Tacview you'll see that the AOA in the border area around 28 degrees during the maneuver. If the AOA was smaller it would have happened by accident.

DCS is not a real simulator to analysis carried out in taking him seriously.

This is just one improvisation events from real life in DCS environment.

 

I apologize for the Google English.

 

Loss of height, depending on the initial speed, load and angle of descent with the MiG 21bis.

Edited September 11, 2016 by yufighter

[sLYFa]

 

This means the MiG-21's lift coefficient at 15 deg AOA is as big as MiG-29's lift coefficient at 24 deg AOA, which is beyond completely crazy.

 

Most certainly not. Lookup any table/diagram with deltawing Cl vs swept wing Cl and you will see the delta´s CL curve is (almost) always below the swept wings one.

Edited September 11, 2016 by sLYFa

[Fox One]

If you look Tacview you'll see that the AOA in the border area around 28 degrees during the maneuver. If the AOA was smaller it would have happened by accident.

 

That must be because Tacview is showing cockpit AOA, which is different in MiG-21's case from true AOA which you can see in external view. When in MiG-21's cockpit you see 28 deg AOA, this is not the true AOA, true AOA is much smaller as you can see in external view.

 

Loss of height, depending on the initial speed, load and angle of descent with the MiG 21bis.

 

The diagram you posted is for height loss when pulling from a dive, not for split-S height loss.

[Fox One]

Most certainly not. Lookup any table/diagram with deltawing Cl vs swept wing Cl and you will see the delta´s CL curve is (almost) always below the swept wings one.

 

You are right with the Cl, you misunderstood what I said. Let me rephrase that:

 

In order to be able to split-S from 1000m like you can do in simulator the MiG-21's lift coefficient at 15 deg AOA would have to be as big as MiG-29's lift coefficient at 24 deg AOA, which is beyond completely crazy.