[NO BUG] Ground roll inertia...

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

- Intentionally left blank -

Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[SlipBall]

I tried to bring the rudder's inefficiency on the ground to some level of awareness for people here...it certainly needs to be looked at because it is lacking authority, for taxing and the right hand direction of turn. I also think she rolls to easily and has problems with the grass, maybe grabbing the lawn on touch down in unsafe way :)

[NineLine]

Once again, please avoid BOS comparisons, DCS aircraft are modelled after the real thing, not off of another sim. Referencing another sim only serves to steer us into which sim is better discussion. Reference real information, that is the only information we will submit for bug reports.

 

That said, I disagree with what you are saying, you have to bring the throttle up some before the wheels will start turning, there is hesitation there before it moves, yes, once they are rolling it moves quite freely, but I hope the Germans were capable of making a decent wheel bearing back then ;)

 

I find this to be true with what we have now (I think its an E in this case, but I think it would be similar):

 

The throttle opens very quickly, responding almost instantaneously to throttle movements. The direct injection system means there is no risk of choking. The initial acceleration is very good and the aircraft will not bucket or sing.

 

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109E_UKtrials/Morgan.html

 

 

I believe the most affected ww2 module in regards to ground physics is the K4, while at the opposite extreme of the spectrum lays the p51d, which I find to be probably the closest to the real thing in terms of ground physics, although I still think that rudder authority at taxi speeds is still underdone...

 

But the K4 is really strange at taxi speeds / power settings. It accelerates as if it was a feather when we add power. There is almost no sensation of ground drag / inertia... This also turns it impossible to use power bursts to increase the rudder efficiency during ground maneuvers, specially turns...

 

The Dora is also affected by this "ground lightness syndrome" IMO, but not as much as the K4.

 

 

The trim issues are a total mess as the K4 is right now... That's another area really lacking update. For the time being I take off at, at most 1.2 ATA, but still need full nose heavy trim ( 2 ), when 1 should be used and even require a bit of a pull to leave the ground, like in BoS....

 

The K4 being tail heavy, required sometimes forward stick for tighter turns while taxiing, aided by full rudder and differential braking... Do that in the DCS K4 and you risk a prop strike :-/ In BoS I can consistently push the stick fully fwd during tight turns, use power bursts to increase tail authority, and couple that with differential braking, all working plausibly, IMO....

Edited May 2, 2015 by NineLine

[[DBS]TH0R]

While I find K4 reluctant to change the direction of the turn when you are not moving (SiThSpAwN's tail wheel bearing remark), I find no problems with it as far as ground handing goes. Heavy use of differential braking is a must. Once it starts moving you can push the stick fully forward and to some extent use prop wash with rudder to turn, but I prefer differential braking and don't use rudder much.

 

From the above posted link:

4.14. Ground Handling. – Because of the large weight on the tail the aircraft can be taxied very fast without bouncing or bucketing, but is difficult to turn quickly; an unusually large amount of throttle is necessary, in conjunction with harsh use of the differential brakes, when manoeuvring in a confined space. Apart from turning performance, the ground handling qualities are good. The brakes are powerful and can be used harshly without lifting the tail; they are foot operated, and the pilots expressed a strong preference for the hand-operated system universal on British aircraft.

 

(1) nose down trim works for me and I use it for TO without a problem. I don't use more than 1.4 ATA on normal TO. I've even pulled off a wheel landing yesterday.

 

Have you tried using some kind of a curvature on your throttle? A buddy of mine finds P-51's throttle too sensitive and ever since he dialed in curvature its a joy to fly for him.

 

 

EDIT2: Upon some further testing... Switching to manual PP and just a touch of right rudder is required combined with full stick forward for the plane to start turning right when stationary. From there on propwash alone is enough.

Edited May 3, 2015 by T}{OR

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

- Intentionally left blank -

Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[[DBS]TH0R]

Unless I am mistaken those planes are some 2-4 times lighter than those with which you are comparing them in DCS. However, I agree there should be some rudder authority. And from my experience there is - but you need to be careful not to wreck your plane with engines this powerful.

 

109 requires (when on manual pitch and fully fine - 12:30 on the gauge) just a touch of right brake to start swinging to the right when turning stationary, while in P-51 I've done circles just on account of the rudder without touching the brakes. Especially when moving into a parking slot for a 180° turn. That was some patches ago, will test as soon as I can to verify again.

 

P-51 tail wheel turns 6° in each direction with stick held back.

[NineLine]

The pilot ED is in communication with describes ground handling pretty close to what we have now from what I have seen.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Having watched this video it seems to me the power changes / requirement needed to taxi are also very small in the G-4 Red 7:

 

 

Also note the (I think manual) pitch settings at 11:45.

[SlipBall]

Having watched this video it seems to me the power changes / requirement needed to taxi are also very small in the G-4 Red 7:

 

 

Also note the (I think manual) pitch settings at 11:45.

 

 

Yeah not much power variation required it seems...effortless comes to mind :)

Edited May 10, 2015 by GT 5.0

[NineLine]

Is it just me or is he taxing with the stick held forward much of the time, or am I just seeing it wrong?

[Teapot]

Is it just me or is he taxing with the stick held forward much of the time, or am I just seeing it wrong?

 

I get the same impression. He definitely pushes the stick forward while taxiing.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

The 109s being tail heavy, require full stick fwd in tight turns.

 

Full fwd stick in DCS's K4 causes prop strike...

[[DBS]TH0R]

I've yet to nose over both when using brakes after landing or taxing with full stick forward. Again, could you share a nose over track?

[Echo38]

I tried to bring the rudder's inefficiency on the ground to some level of awareness for people here...it certainly needs to be looked at because it is lacking authority, for taxing and the right hand direction of turn.

 

Ah, they said that about the real one, too.

 

; )

[NineLine]

Ah, they said that about the real one, too.

 

; )

 

Yup, brake usage is most certainly needed in the real one.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

I've yet to nose over both when using brakes after landing or taxing with full stick forward. Again, could you share a nose over track?

 

 

nosing over in dcs in the 109 is definitely possible if you hit the breaks even with the stick full backwards at time, if fuel is low....

[[DBS]TH0R]

I know it is possible and I did it on purpose, but never by accident - so far. That was what I was trying to say.

[Maverick Su-35S]

As long as you unlock the tail wheel and use diff braking, just a little bit of power is needed to turn as you desire, with stick in any position. And yes, the airflow from the propeller can be felt quite well if you apply power at the right moment while the tail wheel is unlocked. For example, the plane is rolling slowly at about 10-15km/h and with the tail wheel unlocked you press right brake pedal and induce a yaw (towards the right it would be better, because when you apply throttle it will naturally tend to yaw left, thus making it harder to see it otherwise)..., now as the yaw rate increases (because the CG of the plane is behind the main gear's touching point on the ground) you should apply full opposite rudder and power, with NO brakes, and you'll see how it responds to your input.

 

The 109 is pretty heavy compared to other smaller prop planes that react almost instantly in yaw due to prop effects on their deflected rudder and this also matters even more for a tail wheel plane as compared to a free castoring with 3 main gear plane, so the differences can be quite big.

 

The only problem that disturbs me and makes me pull my hear off is the grass that has infinite grip and smashes your face into the ground in no time if there is a tiny amount of beta/sideslip when the wheels touch the grass or when having a remnant yaw rate.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Maverick Su-35S