The 30 mm mess up the poor mustangs...

[fighter1976]

Ok, different opinions, but IS there,in the game, some chart regarding destructive power of shells that can be altered-like the "warheads" chart for missiles(DCS World>Config>Weapons)?

[Solty]

I still think that there are problems with inconsistent DM. Sometimes it takes 5 hits to make the P-51 smoke and sometimes it takes 1 shot to the same part to make it fly away.

 

It is the same with .50cals mind you. Sometimes a whole burst hits the 109, around 50 bullets and nothing, not even smoke comes out even though engine area is hit. On other ocasion whole wing flies off with 10 sparks(or rather puffs of smoke). I understand that kinetic energy based weapons are different, and I know how it works and thus it is possible that even 1 well placed .50cal round could penetrate and destroy the wing's main spars in such a way that the wing could possibly collapse or get ripped off.

 

The problem is that in DCS we don't see that happen, some hits are completely in non-vital areas and still destroy vital parts (govenor gets damaged even when shots hit the tail of the plane), while others that should have destroyed the engine do nothing.

 

The other day, this is what happened to my P-51D when a single 20mm(tracer was visible) hit my horisontal stabiliser. And it affected the FM as well, as there was directional instability since that happened. So... DM is advanced... just not enough. It gets confused it seems and player doesn't get the right response.

 

 

I also question P-51's fire power. Only tracer round hits are visible on planes from .50cals why? I have found out that the P-51D doesn't have the correct amunition in ammo belt (via .lua file you can see only AP and APIT ammo is used).Possible standard ammo belt I've heard was only API ammo and every 10th shot was APIT

EDIT: Also, when only inboard guns were left, the last part of the belt was loaded only with APIT ammo (last 250 round)

 

EDIT 2: Film that confirms use of the API ammunition even without APIT ammo. (every hit is visible via flash on the target) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxI6kW7bFU

Edited May 13, 2015 by Solty

[NineLine]

Sith the figures I posted represent the required accuracy of the actual weapons installation, in short it's the dispersion of the gun when installed on and operated from the aircraft.

 

Sitting on the ground, correct?

 

Also your comment that a discussion relating the real life performance of the Mk108 as being irrelevant to this discussion I simply cannot understand.

 

I know twisting peoples words is your thing, but please drop it, I never once said real life data/performance is irrelevant, I ask that we not discuss other games, or use links to their forums, videos, etc. If you want to include some data, and/or discuss its relevance to DCS that's fine. Point being is most of those IL2 discussions are a bunch of chest pounding, undocumented facts, with the occasion sprinkle of real world data. Most IL2 boards I have ever read are like the wild west. Who wants to sort through all that garbage when we can 'try' to have a clean conversation over here.

Edited May 13, 2015 by NineLine

[NineLine]

I still think that there are problems with inconsistent DM. Sometimes it takes 5 hits to make the P-51 smoke and sometimes it takes 1 shot to the same part to make it fly away.

 

I dont know how a DM could be inconsistent. More likely people are not accounting for shells that pass through the aircraft, I still dont know how hits are registered either, if they pass through its possible the logs record every point of contact with a hit box as a hit.

 

Also there are 2 different types of shells being used in the mix for the mk108, so you could get 'inconsistent' results if that one shot is a different shell and depending on the point of contact.

 

All that said, I have asked ED to look at the Mk108 and make sure everything is functioning as it should, to look at the penetration levels and make sure they are correct, etc.

 

I also question P-51's fire power.

 

Wrong place for a P-51 bug report.

Edited May 13, 2015 by NineLine

[Solty]

Roger that.

[golani79]

Could it be that there are differences between singleplayer and multiplayer?

 

Seems like a few videos were taken in SP and a few in MP.

[NineLine]

Could it be that there are differences between singleplayer and multiplayer?

 

Seems like a few videos were taken in SP and a few in MP.

 

I am sure there is, on one hand you have SP, so you are dealing with the AI, SFM, and the pilots abilities to fly the plane to its best, even in a damaged state.

 

The you have MP, you have connection issues and such. I am sure there more to these issues than the modelling of the Mk108s.

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

 

Sithspawn ..How many MOD have you installed? ..CleanGlasses ..and what other more?

..or it is a special open BETA?.

 

At that distance it is impossible for me to hit with the MK108 to a P-51 in a frontal attack.

.. I only get effective cannon shots in less than 100m of distance.

Edited May 13, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[NineLine]

Sithspawn ..How many MOD have you installed? ..CleanGlasses ..and what other more?

..or it is a special open BETA?.

 

At that distance it is impossible for me to hit with the MK108 to a P-51 in a frontal attack.

.. I only get effective cannon shots in less than 100m of distance.

 

I don't use any mods, being a tester its better to have a clean version so I know mods aren't effecting what I am seeing. Generally closer range is better for cannon shots like you said, but yeah, that was a good shot right ;)

[otto]

 

This is the angle from which the shooting was done in the real life test that was performed to establish what damage the german 108 30mm could do on a p47.

 

 

I tried to replicate the 27% 1 shot kill rate(that the test concluded) in game.

 

Not even one of my 1 shot hits resulted in any serious damage in game even when the wingtip was hit.(TEsh tracks).

 

Than I tried to see that kind of damage the 37mm mig15 gun would do(tracks beginning with mig).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can kill the p51 with the 37mm every time when shooting from above.But from this angle it has a serious problem.And I have a newly repaired no mods no nothing DCS.

 

 

PS: Solty is right the m2 mg's damage has also problems.The 109 engine seems almost invulnerable to them.Compared to how vulnerable the p51 engine is to german mg fire.

TEst-h-9-1.trk

TEst-h-8-1.trk

TEst-h-7-1.trk

TEst-h-6-1.trk

TEst-h-5-1.trk

TEst-h-4-1.trk

TEst-h-3-1.trk

TEst-h-2-1.trk

TEst-h-1-1.trk

Gun-hit-35-vs-51-1-2.trk

mig-1-1.trk

mig-2-1.trk

mig-3-1.trk

mig-4-1.trk

mig-5-1.trk

Edited May 13, 2015 by otto

[NineLine]

Can you tell me if you think you were hitting the wing around where the gear are located at all?

[otto]

Can you tell me if you think you were hitting the wing around where the gear are located at all?

 

I don't know what you mean.I posted the tracks so you can see for yourself.

 

Honestly i'm tired of testing.

[NineLine]

I don't know what you mean.I posted the tracks so you can see for yourself.

 

Honestly i'm tired of testing.

 

It was a simple question, but thanks anyways.

[DirtyFret]

Ok, different opinions, but IS there,in the game, some chart regarding destructive power of shells that can be altered-like the "warheads" chart for missiles(DCS World>Config>Weapons)?

 

Yes there is, DCSWorld/Coremods/WWII Units/weapons.lua and search for the shell you want.

 

In case you want an easy solution just try my tweak on it :) http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=141956

[Hummingbird]

Sitting on the ground, correct?

 

Your point being?

 

I know twisting peoples words is your thing, but please drop it, I never once said real life data/performance is irrelevant, I ask that we not discuss other games, or use links to their forums, videos, etc. If you want to include some data, and/or discuss its relevance to DCS that's fine. Point being is most of those IL2 discussions are a bunch of chest pounding, undocumented facts, with the occasion sprinkle of real world data. Most IL2 boards I have ever read are like the wild west. Who wants to sort through all that garbage when we can 'try' to have a clean conversation over here.

 

Wow, just wow....

[NineLine]

Your point being?

 

 

if I have to explain the difference in accuracy of a gun when its flying through the air in a dogfight at the limits of the aircraft to one sitting on the ground nicely secured in place firing at a fixed target, well then we are probably not getting anywhere in this discussion.

[gavagai]

Generally closer range is better for cannon shots like you said, but yeah, that was a good shot right ;)

 

Ad nauseum, 50m or 200m shouldn't make much difference for the Mk 108's destructive power.

[Hummingbird]

if I have to explain the difference in accuracy of a gun when its flying through the air in a dogfight at the limits of the aircraft to one sitting on the ground nicely secured in place firing at a fixed target, well then we are probably not getting anywhere in this discussion.

 

It's the same for all the guns, i.e. the Mk108 weapon installation is more accurate than the M2 for example.

[NineLine]

So a Mk108 in an aircraft, flying through the air is just as accurate as sitting on the ground not moving at all? That is what you are saying just to be clear?

[gavagai]

So a Mk108 in an aircraft, flying through the air is just as accurate as sitting on the ground not moving at all? That is what you are saying just to be clear?

 

Be sure that you really mean accuracy and not precision:

 

 

But quibbling over weapon accuracy or precision is a red herring for the Mk 108. If we were discussing a weapon like the M2, which depends on dozens of strikes in the same area to damage a target, then it might be relevant. No one has said they were missing too much with the Mk 108.

Edited May 15, 2015 by gavagai

[ZaltysZ]

More likely people are not accounting for shells that pass through the aircraft, I still dont know how hits are registered either, if they pass through its possible the logs record every point of contact with a hit box as a hit.

 

We have 3 shell types in game: Mine, Mine with tracer and HE-I. These are not supposed to be good penetrators because of low muzzle velocity, "tin can" design (rolled/pressed steel for maximizing chemical content) and detonators which (depending on type) are supposed to trigger explosion either on impact or a bit after impact. These were not built to routinely pass through more than a skin.

[NineLine]

We have 3 shell types in game: Mine, Mine with tracer and HE-I. These are not supposed to be good penetrators because of low muzzle velocity, "tin can" design (rolled/pressed steel for maximizing chemical content) and detonators which (depending on type) are supposed to trigger explosion either on impact or a bit after impact. These were not built to routinely pass through more than a skin.

 

Which would be an issue, the key is trying to find out what is happening to these 'ghost' hits.

[NineLine]

Be sure that you really mean accuracy and not precision:

 

 

But quibbling over weapon accuracy or precision is a red herring for the Mk 108. If we were discussing a weapon like the M2, which depends on dozens of strikes in the same area to damage a target, then it might be relevant. No one has said they were missing too much with the Mk 108.

 

My only point was that posting numbers from tests on the ground is only a small part of it. You cant expect to get those same results in the air and be an Ace pilot out of the gates.

 

But you are right, for the issue of registered hits that don't do fatal (or atleast heavy) damage, that isnt an issue.

 

As far as the original post, accuracy and/or precision play a huge part in the strength of the gun, and when you hit the Mustang hard, you falls to pieces. AND again, I will add the disclaimer that I know there are issues, but peoples inability to bring down an aircraft with the mk108 dont all fall into those issues, some are back on them.

Edited May 15, 2015 by NineLine

[otto]

Mustang hard, you falls to pieces. AND again, I will add the disclaimer that I know there are issues, but peoples inability to bring down an aircraft with the mk108 dont all fall into those issues, some are back on them.

 

If you shoot a plane with any weapon it's going to go down eventually.This does't have anything to do with historical accuracy.

 

The damage model in game is totally parallel to that from the historical test I posted.

 

There is no way you can get a one shot kill in 27% of cases while shooting from that angle mentioned in the test.And it needs to be a hit that does structure damage , not engine or pilot.

 

In real life most times damage was structural.In game vs humans 95% of the time the engine dies.This is completely wrong according to historical tests.

 

 

+DCS has horrible framedrops when multiple p51's fire.

that has affected my accuracy quite a lot on many occasions .So change this : "you need to shoot better line ".

[NineLine]

If you shoot a plane with any weapon it's going to go down eventually.This does't have anything to do with historical accuracy.

 

The damage model in game is totally parallel to that from the historical test I posted.

 

There is no way you can get a one shot kill in 27% of cases while shooting from that angle mentioned in the test.And it needs to be a hit that does structure damage , not engine or pilot.

 

In real life most times damage was structural.In game vs humans 95% of the time the engine dies.This is completely wrong according to historical tests.

 

 

+DCS has horrible framedrops when multiple p51's fire.

that has affected my accuracy quite a lot on many occasions .So change this : "you need to shoot better line ".

 

Ok. You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Funny thing is I am willing to admit there is more to it than just skill level. You want to place 100% of the blame on things you cant control right now. Again, thats fine, it;s your opinion. At this point, this thread has just turned into nothing useful, the DM is a planned to be looked at heavily, its been stated by Yo-Yo himself. My vid above shows you can rip up the Mustang with the cannon, not sure what else there is to say on the subject, and I am not interested in a banana boards dust up.

 

+DCS has horrible framedrops when multiple p51's fire.

that has affected my accuracy quite a lot on many occasions .

 

Again, this isnt the place for P-51 bug reports, and that issue has been stated to be waiting on 2.0. Please use the search function otherwise it comes off as a Rule 1.10 violation.

 

So change this : "you need to shoot better line ".

 

No.

Edited May 16, 2015 by NineLine