R-27EP

[rami80]

I found out that there seems to be a passive homing version of the R-27, named R-27EP. Might it be added to the game?

[SilentGun]

R-27EP

 

Can you site your source please?

 

And also do you know if it was used on the Su-27S? Because I would love to have this missile to counter the AMRAAM. :)

 

EDIT: there is already a thread on this topic http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=53549. But it's for FC2

Edited May 21, 2015 by SilentGun

[Frostie]

Just speculating here but to use such a weapon would probably require an avionic upgrade of some sort which is most likely not present on the Su27S.

The missile itself has gone through some issues regarding power supply considering it is expected to reach out to 200km, the standard Alamo power supply doesn't last long enough.

If capable I should imagine it is only available on more modern Flanker variants Su35 etc. and then there is the value of such missile in a modern LO radar environment, AWACS killer maybe.

[GGTharos]

According to certain sources closer to the missile than most forum goers, the R-27EP stocks are either non-existent, or very limited with very specific purpose, and I think Frostie's last sentence would be the closest to the mark.

 

Because of the above, AFAIK it won't be included any time soon.

[combatace]

Just speculating here but to use such a weapon would probably require an avionic upgrade of some sort which is most likely not present on the Su27S.

The missile itself has gone through some issues regarding power supply considering it is expected to reach out to 200km, the standard Alamo power supply doesn't last long enough.

If capable I should imagine it is only available on more modern Flanker variants Su35 etc. and then there is the value of such missile in a modern LO radar environment, AWACS killer maybe.

 

No, R-27EP is not designed to reach out 200Km rather its maximum range specified by manufacturer is 110Km in head-on engagement and i think power supply sure lasts that long as ER has around same range.

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/506/

 

This is the link to manufacturer's site.

[Erdem]

It would spice up the gameplay, why not. At least we know it exists and it works.

[pepin1234]

I don't believe the EP version is a AWACS killer and either that is supposed to reach 200 km.

 

This missile should be guided in the first stage by inertial/radio corrected and then activate the passive seeker, so this missile can be used against a fighter as well and the possible upgrade for the Su-27S should be not necessary. This missile should be made thinking in the Mig and Sukhoi export market for the old and new versions.

[BlazexX23Xx]

I don't believe the EP version is a AWACS killer and either that is supposed to reach 200 km.

 

This missile should be guided in the first stage by inertial/radio corrected and then activate the passive seeker, so this missile can be used against a fighter as well and the possible upgrade for the Su-27S should be not necessary. This missile should be made thinking in the Mig and Sukhoi export market for the old and new versions.

 

This.

[GGTharos]

Right, so:

 

1. The target still gets the lock-launch warning

2. The un-upgraded system doesn't tell you when the passive seeker has gone online

[pepin1234]

Right, so:

 

1. The target still gets the lock-launch warning

 

This is not very clear. This is supposed that happen in this game but not in real life. Is not the first time I read you saying that. With Radio/inertial guidance you should get only a lock. So The RWR of the F-15 into this game is going ahead than the Real life. The launch warning is only when the Semi-active head seeker is activated and in the case of the P version is total passive

 

Right, so:2. The un-upgraded system doesn't tell you when the passive seeker has gone online

 

The reaction of the missile in this case could vary depending of the radar, but also could be automatic depending of the flight stage and distance have made the launch.

[GGTharos]

This is not very clear. This is supposed that happen in this game but not in real life. Is not the first time I read you saying that. With Radio/inertial guidance you should get only a lock. So The RWR of the F-15 into this game is going ahead than the Real life. The launch warning is only when the Semi-active head seeker is activated and in the case of the P version is total passive

 

It is VERY clear. Lock + M-link generation = missile warning. No M-Link, no 'radio command' guidance. The SARH seeker is passive, there's no way to know that it has activated.

The radar doesn't make any choices about generating the M-Link. You launch the missile, the M-Link is generated.

 

The reaction of the missile in this case could vary depending of the radar, but also could be automatic depending of the flight stage and distance have made the launch.

 

What does that have to do with the information that you get as a pilot? You don't know what the missile is doing. Sure, inside a certain range you can be certain that the missile has activated its seeker off the rail or really close, but at those ranges you can also be pretty certain there's a 120 that you won't be able to ignore.

Edited May 22, 2015 by GGTharos

[steve65]

This question is for GG Tharos.wouldnt the r-27ep act like a kh-58 only it would "see" a fighter aircraft radar like the kh-58 sees a Sam radar and if that is true does the kh-58 use initial guidance from the launching aircraft like you say the r-27ep does until it is in range and "sees" the radar signal and flys toward it on its own?also does a Sam site get a launch warning when an kh-58 is launched against it? You are very knowledgable about these things and I am trying to understand the way these missiles find there targets.

Edited May 23, 2015 by steve65

[GGTharos]

A SAM site doesn't get a launch warning because you're not locking onto a sam-site, you're locking onto the radar emission passively, because you have the hardware that makes this possible available.

 

With the R-27EP you're still locking onto the target with your radar unless your missile allows you to aim it like a heat-seeker (which is less efficient BVR).

 

Beyond this, if you launch with radar lock, you get a warning, if you don't launch it with radar lock, there should be no warning.

 

Once the missile's seeker is activated then yes, it works like a Kh-58. At the same time though, the Kh-58 is usually attacking a stationary target, so it might not need an STT radar source to guide to, while the 27EP probably does need this.

 

With the arrival of the 120 and TWS capability, this makes the EP less useful (my guess).

 

In any case, it appears that in RL, thee R-27 is still the mainstay in its SARH and ARH versions, and the P, if at all available, is probably a special purpose missile.

 

Another way to think about it: No one's really making passive radar homing AAMs, with the possible exception of some 'AWACS killers', but even there the passive concept is mainly abandoned for ARH capability instead.

 

This question is for GG Tharos.wouldnt the r-27ep act like a kh-58 only it would "see" a fighter aircraft radar like the kh-58 sees a Sam radar and if that is true does the kh-58 use initial guidance from the launching aircraft until it is in range and "sees" the radar signal and flys toward it on its own?also does a Sam site get a launch warning when an kh-58 is launched against it? You are very knowledgable about these things and I am trying to understand the way these missiles find there targets.

[steve65]

Thanks for the info GG that does help clear up some of my questions.so if what you say is true the R-27EP does not passively lock on a fighters radar emissions like I was thinking it would and you are right it would be a waste if you had to use STT to lock the target.but IIRC I saw an article and it calls the missile a passive anti radiation missile for A-A .i could be wrong about that though.

 

Edit:here's the link to the article i saw it's from 2004.

 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?24787-Vympel-offers-new-R-27EP-anti-radar-missile

Edited May 23, 2015 by steve65

[GGTharos]

Sure it passively locks onto the target radar. The point is that this target radar must be emitting in STT for the missile to guide accurately.

 

Likewise, if the missile doesn't allow you to aim it like a heater, then you have to aim it using the radar first, regardless of what it does after.

[_Teddy_]

Sure it passively locks onto the target radar. The point is that this target radar must be emitting in STT for the missile to guide accurately...

 

"...The R-27P1 and R-27EP1 unified medium-range air-to-air missiles with passive IR homing heads are designed to engage radio-emitting air targets by day and night..."

 

I'm not sure if IR-seeker can lock on radar emissions...

[combatace]

"...The R-27P1 and R-27EP1 unified medium-range air-to-air missiles with passive IR homing heads are designed to engage radio-emitting air targets by day and night..."

 

I'm not sure if IR-seeker can lock on radar emissions...

 

Where did you quote that from?

[_Teddy_]

Where did you quote that from?

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/506/

[rami80]

A few questions:

 

- What's an M-link?

- Doesn't the rwr IRL indicate a launch when the launch platform is in range?

- Why does a passive seeker need a radar operating in STT mode? (SEAD missiles don't seem to require that)

[*Rage*]

Do we have any data on the operational use of R27EP/EA?

[*Rage*]

"...The R-27P1 and R-27EP1 unified medium-range air-to-air missiles with passive IR homing heads are designed to engage radio-emitting air targets by day and night..."

 

I'm not sure if IR-seeker can lock on radar emissions...

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/506/

 

Thats interesting...

 

Passive radar and IR seeking? I dont remember seeing this before.

[steve65]

Sure it passively locks onto the target radar. The point is that this target radar must be emitting in STT for the missile to guide accurately.

 

Likewise, if the missile doesn't allow you to aim it like a heater, then you have to aim it using the radar first, regardless of what it does after.

 

That's more than likely true I don't really see any detailed info for exactly how it passively tracks radar emissions or whether it would track the target in STT mode or search mode or both.here is a quote from the article you can take it as you will.

 

"The R-27P and -EP missile - P for passivnaya (passive) - are equipped with a PRGS-27 (or 9B-1032) seeker developed by CKBA. This operates at centimetric wavelengths, and guides the round to the radar of enemy fighter aircraft. The missile is intended for use against enemy fighters at long range, when the launch aircraft may still be beyond the maximum range of the target's radar. Since the weapon uses passive homing, it will give the target no warning that a launch has been made. "

Edited May 23, 2015 by steve65

[GGTharos]

Not a chance. Multi-mode seekers are not even implemented right now, they're a 'future' thing unless someone actually mounted one somewhere and it slipped by me. Not on an old missile though.

 

Looks like a typo to me, by 'IR' they meant 'RF'.

 

Thats interesting...

 

Passive radar and IR seeking? I dont remember seeing this before.

[_Teddy_]

Not a chance. Multi-mode seekers are not even implemented right now, they're a 'future' thing unless someone actually mounted one somewhere and it slipped by me. Not on an old missile though.

 

Looks like a typo to me, by 'IR' they meant 'RF'.

 

Russian version confirms you are right:

 

"...Управляемые авиационные ракеты класса «воздух-воздух» средней дальности действия Р-27П1, Р-27ЭП1 – унифицированные ракеты с пассивной радиолокационной головкой самонаведения предназначены для поражения радиоизлучающих воздушных целей..."

 

http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/649/665/

Edited May 23, 2015 by _Teddy_

[Alfa]

 

With the R-27EP you're still locking onto the target with your radar unless your missile allows you to aim it like a heat-seeker (which is less efficient BVR).

 

According to varies soruces the "200 km" range quote of the R-27EP is actually supposed to be the seeker acuisition range in which case you would be able to aim it like a heat-seeker(LOBL) to the extend the WCS is set up accordingly.

 

Personally I think it sounds a little fantastic that a small passive radar seeker(antenna of some 26 cm in diameter) should be able to home on a radar source at such distances.

 

Mind you the same sources say that even the long-burn R-27E can't take advantage of this range since the aerodynamics(and propulsion I guess)/power reserve of the missile itself doesn't allow it to reach that far.

 

There is also the possibility of aiming and controlling it on route via the RWS(like ARMs) in which case the range quote may sound a little more believable although that would at least require a more modern RWS(made compatible with the missile) than the standard SPO-15 on "baseline" Su-27s.

 

In any case, it appears that in RL, thee R-27 is still the mainstay in its SARH and ARH versions, and the P, if at all available, is probably a special purpose missile.

 

Yes - well in its SARH and IR versions you mean - the proposed ARH version never progressed further than from the idea and as such is a lot less real than the -EP :)