typhoon vs f-35, who is win?

[Exorcet]

I don't care, without any realistic data I can tell what I want. Show me something better than a p-51 analogy and I might change my mind. In the meantime, everything that is available to the public points to a huge superiority of the Typhoon. :D

What would be better than the P-51 analogy? We don't have specific data on either plane. General consensus is the F-35 is stealthier and even Eurofighter agrees with that. So there is a gap, but we don't know how big. I could change the analogy to try and change the size of the gap, but what's the point when we don't know (and I admitted that the P-51 vs modern fighter gap was exaggerated anyway).

 

The F-35 isn't a fighter primarily, but that doesn't mean it's going to be bad at air combat. It doesn't seem like it will be any worse than current (4th gen) fighters. It's fair to call it a fighter itself, while I wouldn't consider the EF-2000 to be a stealth aircraft based on what I've seen.

 

Where is the Typhoon's huge superiority coming from?

[Barfly]

I think the combination of AESA radar, DAS (Distributed Aperature System - for 360 degree sense/vision), and stealth will allow the F35 to defeat a Typhoon class aircraft most of the time. It will have a significant detect / avoid-detect period, with faster acquisition and launch of equivalent weapons.

 

WVR the F35 has F16 class maneuverability, which is probably close to the Typhoon if it is carrying typical combat stores.

 

As far as I know, the current Typhoon has no AESA, and the Meteor is not yet available.

 

The F35 would have a significant advantage in ground attack missions against heavy air defenses.

[pyromaniac4002]

typhoon wins 8 times out of 10.

 

And in 10 out of 10 realistic engagement scenarios from BVR, Typhoon has no idea an F-35 is in the area or is completely incapable of engaging it until it's too late, just like every scenario involving stealth vs. non-stealth aircraft. You can't hit what you can't see.

[Beagle One]

I think the combination of AESA radar, DAS (Distributed Aperature System - for 360 degree sense/vision), and stealth will allow the F35 to defeat a Typhoon class aircraft most of the time. It will have a significant detect / avoid-detect period, with faster acquisition and launch of equivalent weapons.

 

WVR the F35 has F16 class maneuverability, which is probably close to the Typhoon if it is carrying typical combat stores.

 

As far as I know, the current Typhoon has no AESA, and the Meteor is not yet available.

 

The F35 would have a significant advantage in ground attack missions against heavy air defenses.

CAPTOR-E as an improved AESA with a detetion range for a conventional fighter size aircraft of 185km is sheduled for 2015 as well as the MBDA Meteor.

 

The F-35 itself is sheduled for service in 2016.

 

Which aircraft is acctualyl bettr is hard to tell ut its clear that the Typhooon can accelerate faster and gain more altitude to give it's misiles more range while not in need to drop a moderate AG ordonnance.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Beagle One

[Barfly]

CAPTOR-E as an improved AESA with a detetion range for a conventional fighter size aircraft of 185km is sheduled for 2015 as well as the MBDA Meteor.

 

The F-35 itself is sheduled for service in 2016.

 

Which aircraft is acctualyl bettr is hard to tell ut its clear that the Typhooon can accelerate faster and gain more altitude to give it's misiles more range while not in need to drop a moderate AG ordonnance.

 

It probably does accelerate and climb better at combat speeds, but it's launch range will be relatively short compared to the F35, even with it's upgraded radar. The Typhoon will still be at a significant BVR disadvantage.

 

I look at the Typhoon, once it is upgraded, as in the same relative class as the Block 60 F-16 the UAE already has in the field. The Typhoon would have slightly better thrust to weight and maneuverability WVR, but probably almost identical overall as small multi-role aircraft.

[Barfly]

Also, the deal to develop the Captor-E was only signed this past November... I doubt it will be developed and fielded within a year....

 

Right now the only AESA fielded are in the US and on the UAE Block 60/61 F-16s.

[NeilWillis]

If the F35 wasn't capable of hammering the Typhoon, I'd want my money back! The cost of those things, and being a UK taxpayer, I would expect miracles!

 

I wonder if a DCS World version of the F-35 would have a similarly obscene price tag?

[pyromaniac4002]

The only time a Typhoon would reliably dominate an F-35 is if it were able to catch that F-35 on the ground.

 

Maneuverability, T/W ratio and all that are great, but they're not going to do anything in the areas where F-35 is at its most advantageous. Everyone loves a good dogfight ending in a guns kill, but think about how you're going to even get to that point. And as much as a maneuverability advantage as a Typhoon might have on an F-35, it's not going to out-maneuver an AIM-9X or its future variants. IF you could get in position behind an F-35 for a guns kill, hats off to you, you now have a good shot at taking it down.

 

Outside of that, like I said, the only time you're going to be cracking F-35 skulls is when they're on the ground and you're overhead carrying some stuff that goes boom.

[leafer]

lol Yeah, yeah the fact remains, Raptor lost. And in another time to a Rafale. People can orgasm over the mental image of these two in several BVR engagements or some sweaty Typhoon searhing for parked F35s to strafe, but in this aerial dogfight, it tried but couldn't get away from a butt rape by a Typhoon. Or maybe it's the better pilot that won that day?

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

The only time a Typhoon would reliably dominate an F-35 is if it were able to catch that F-35 on the ground.

 

Maneuverability, T/W ratio and all that are great, but they're not going to do anything in the areas where F-35 is at its most advantageous. Everyone loves a good dogfight ending in a guns kill, but think about how you're going to even get to that point. And as much as a maneuverability advantage as a Typhoon might have on an F-35, it's not going to out-maneuver an AIM-9X or its future variants. IF you could get in position behind an F-35 for a guns kill, hats off to you, you now have a good shot at taking it down.

 

Outside of that, like I said, the only time you're going to be cracking F-35 skulls is when they're on the ground and you're overhead carrying some stuff that goes boom.

 

I agree. If it were a BVR engagement full weapons load and support, the Lightning 2 would outclass the Typhoon bar none, however, take away the long and med range weapon systems, then I believe that the Typhoon gains the upper hand in maneuverability because the F-35 was never designed for that. You would also then have to take into account the F-35 has 360 degree FOV with that HMS and the radar on it is designed to burn and destroy enemy radars from a distance by overloading it. I'd say depending on the scenario it would be a close match up.

[SandMartin]

Guys, we dont know how effective new generation of ECM system.

 

What if ECM on the typhoon will not allow the F-35 radar and its AMRAAMs to lock on it ?

[Tirak]

Guys, we dont know how effective new generation of ECM system.

 

What if ECM on the typhoon will not allow the F-35 radar and its AMRAAMs to lock on it ?

 

Sounds as likely as Russian Plasma Stealth

[whitehot]

I think the combination of AESA radar, DAS (Distributed Aperature System - for 360 degree sense/vision), and stealth will allow the F35 to defeat a Typhoon class aircraft most of the time. It will have a significant detect / avoid-detect period, with faster acquisition and launch of equivalent weapons.

 

Typhoon has the same systems, only lacks stealth, yet

 

- the stealth performance of the f-35 is yet to be evaluated. A number of analysis tend to agree on the fact that its angles are worse than those of the Raptor, worse even than those of the PAK-FA and the chinese 5th gen fighter.

 

-the ECMs on both aircraft would be anyway probably confining the fight at WVR ranges, at which the typhoon is better in all possible situation (at least if they don't put rear firing AAMs on the lightning)

 

The assumption that the f-35 is in the F-16 maneuverability class is wrong. I did fall for it as well, but reading around, to my surprise I discovered that the maneuverability of the lightning is in the Mig-21 class.

 

It's not a fighter, point. It's a light attack plane, it can load and fire AAMs but if it accepts combat with fighters escortless it hasn't got many chance to come out winner.

[Hummingbird]

Eurofighters suuposedly have a 1:1 exchange ratio vs the F-22 in mock fights, so I'd say the F-35 is pretty screwed on this one.

[tobaschi]

The F-22 that the Typhoon didn't see flying in support of the F-35 would win before the Typhoon ever saw the F-35 ;)

 

urban myth

[King_Hrothgar]

There is only one winner in this matchup, it's Raytheon.

[Hummingbird]

There is only one winner in this matchup, it's Raytheon.

 

Good one :D

[wilky510]

lol Yeah, yeah the fact remains, Raptor lost. And in another time to a Rafale. People can orgasm over the mental image of these two in several BVR engagements or some sweaty Typhoon searhing for parked F35s to strafe, but in this aerial dogfight, it tried but couldn't get away from a butt rape by a Typhoon. Or maybe it's the better pilot that won that day?

F-22 almost weighs twice as much as the Typhoon. I'd say if anyone was "sweaty" it was the Typhoon squadrons; slicked off down to the bone, and still only enough to trade blows with the much heavier F-22.

[Exorcet]

Guys, we dont know how effective new generation of ECM system.

 

What if ECM on the typhoon will not allow the F-35 radar and its AMRAAMs to lock on it ?

 

DAS and 9X? The range of the latest IR missiles is getting up there. Though if ECM was as good as stealth, I wouldn't think anyone would bother with low RCS technology.

 

the ECMs on both aircraft would be anyway probably confining the fight at WVR ranges, at which the typhoon is better in all possible situation (at least if they don't put rear firing AAMs on the lightning)

This still assumes that when WVR happens, both planes magically spot each other and in a neutral position. The EF's advantages don't mean anything if it's spotted first and it has an enemy behind it.

 

I definitely see the possibility of increased WVR encounters due to stealth/ECM, but I do not see them playing out like in WWII by default. It's WWII with aircraft using guided 100 mm cannon shells that can fly for miles and attack 6 planes at once.

 

The assumption that the f-35 is in the F-16 maneuverability class is wrong. I did fall for it as well, but reading around, to my surprise I discovered that the maneuverability of the lightning is in the Mig-21 class.

That sounds completely ridiculous.

 

It's not a fighter, point. It's a light attack plane, it can load and fire AAMs but if it accepts combat with fighters escortless it hasn't got many chance to come out winner.

It's a strike plane with 4th gen (or better) fighter performance. It's the current fighters that don't have much chance in a dogfight. Again, the design role is trumped by performance. It doesn't matter that the F-35 was meant to carry to bombs, what matter is that it is difficult to find and it will turn fast enough to put weapons on anything else in the sky.

 

Eurofighters suuposedly have a 1:1 exchange ratio vs the F-22 in mock fights, so I'd say the F-35 is pretty screwed on this one.

Ignoring the details for these fights, what is the F-22 vs F-35 win rate though?

[whitehot]

F-22 almost weighs twice as much as the Typhoon. I'd say if anyone was "sweaty" it was the Typhoon squadrons; slicked off down to the bone, and still only enough to trade blows with the much heavier F-22.

 

I 'm not sure I get the logic

[whitehot]

That sounds completely ridiculous.

 

as i said, it sounded ridiculous to me also, but that's it.

[Basher54321]

 

The assumption that the f-35 is in the F-16 maneuverability class is wrong. I did fall for it as well, but reading around, to my surprise I discovered that the maneuverability of the lightning is in the Mig-21 class.

 

 

 

 

According too whom exactly?

[Basher54321]

 

I definitely see the possibility of increased WVR encounters due to stealth/ECM, but I do not see them playing out like in WWII by default. It's WWII with aircraft using guided 100 mm cannon shells that can fly for miles and attack 6 planes at once.

 

 

Yes IRSTs and a 360 EODAS that can auto track and lock any target 360 degrees means this is somewhat unlikely.

[zantron]

Typhoon has the same systems, only lacks stealth, yet

 

- the stealth performance of the f-35 is yet to be evaluated. A number of analysis tend to agree on the fact that its angles are worse than those of the Raptor, worse even than those of the PAK-FA and the chinese 5th gen fighter.

i have to wonder too how much further it's "stealth" or rather stealthy characteristics will be compromised by its external payload, and how often it would be equipped with external weapons in combat situations... id imagine it would make sneaking up a little more difficult

[Exorcet]

as i said, it sounded ridiculous to me also, but that's it.

According to what? It sounds ridiculous because there is nothing anyone can base that on. The F-35 is on paper a F-16. It's not short on wing area, it's not short on thrust, and it doesn't have to carry drag spoiling external stores (especially fuel tanks). It has better nose pointing ability than the F-16 (50 degrees AoA vs 25), a comparable usable top speed (1.6 vs mid-high 1.x, 2.0 if clean), it can supercruise.

 

Actual performance charts are not available, but I'd think they would be the only way you could back up the claim that the F-35 turns like the MiG-21. What public data indicates that?