RU IFF issues.

[pr1malr8ge]

I've been killed several times by RU planes shooting via EOS. My complaint is every time I ask they claim to have looked at me via radar to confirm IFF. The issue I have is in the f15 this does not show up on TEWS.

 

IMHO there is no way this will not show up on TEWS and second it would not be on long enough in the RU bird to actually determine IFF. Iff is an interrogation based system. If the TEWS cannot pick up and show the signal therefor the IFF system would not either and there for would not respond. Thus everything shown on the RU plane should show enemy. I also do not believe in that time frame the radar is even be able to function at least not in a perspective of showing on the HUD.

 

Reguardless IMHO if the IFF is able see it and to respond it should also show on TEWS.

[EngineerFalcon]

In Russian planes (at least in DCS) IFF is tied to the radar. So yes, to identify you those planes would have to switch on their radar, and thus show up on your TEWS. In that case they must have determined IFF visually or by your location.

 

I'm not sure I understand what time frame you are talking about. There is indeed a certain delay between switching on the radar and the info appearing on your HUD/HDD.

But from my understanding, in real life IFF either responds (friendly) or does not (enemy). So even if the TEWS cannot pickup an IFF signal, there's no reason for a friendly transponder not to respond.

[pr1malr8ge]

In Russian planes (at least in DCS) IFF is tied to the radar. So yes, to identify you those planes would have to switch on their radar, and thus show up on your TEWS. In that case they must have determined IFF visually or by your location.

 

I'm not sure I understand what time frame you are talking about. There is indeed a certain delay between switching on the radar and the info appearing on your HUD/HDD.

But from my understanding, in real life IFF either responds (friendly) or does not (enemy). So even if the TEWS cannot pickup an IFF signal, there's no reason for a friendly transponder not to respond.

 

It is passive for the most part on the active searching aircraft as there is no IFF signal being sent out [unless that aircraft is being pinged by another aircraft]. The aircraft being pinged detects the radiation and then sends back an IFF encrypted signal. If that signal matches the code on the active search aircraft then the HUD will display the target on the hud as friendly. While this is all done in an extremely short amount of time in the magnitude of .5-1 seconds, it is not exactly instantaneous. [sorry just re-read your reply and I thought you typed something different]

 

What I am trying to get at is, that in the RU planes there are players turning on and off their radar so fast that "targeted" aircraft's TEWS does not register the radiation and remains silent. In my opinion if the radar is not on long enough for TEWS to register it is not on long enough for IFF to register and respond either. Therefor everything on their radar scope should show enemy.

I also side tracked that with the fact that turning the radar on and then off [which I am assuming is in the magnitude of 1 second or less] should not even be long enough to actively show anything on the radar scope. That's like turning a monitor on and back off in that time and have the picture while on for that .5 second be bright and readable.

 

To add, when you claimed a visual IFF, I know that did not happen. TacView is a wonderful thing for deciphering what happened afterwords.

Edited July 16, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[FLANKERATOR]

One should keep in mind that in this case the radar is slaved to EOS, which means that upon switching the radar on, it will already be pointing right at the target; now an IFF transponder is capable of processing hundreds of interrogations per second, we usually talk about microseconds per query, that is more than enough to process a quick Single target IFF check while staying below an RWR detection threshold.

[ShuRugal]

In my opinion if the radar is not on long enough for TEWS to register it is not on long enough for IFF to register and respond either.

 

How do you know this? It could be that TEWS requires a certain amount of signal received to be able to determine if a threat exists and to classify it before it will show an indicator to the pilot. It could also be that the IFF transceiver will immediately begin to respond with a "friendly" ping as soon as the first radar sweep containing a valid IFF request strikes it.

 

Receiving a simple encoded signal requires much less processing (and therefore much less sample data) than analyzing the signature of a signal and comparing it against known profiles to find a match.

[*Rage*]

I've been killed several times by RU planes shooting via EOS. My complaint is every time I ask they claim to have looked at me via radar to confirm IFF. The issue I have is in the f15 this does not show up on TEWS.

 

IMHO there is no way this will not show up on TEWS and second it would not be on long enough in the RU bird to actually determine IFF. Iff is an interrogation based system. If the TEWS cannot pick up and show the signal therefor the IFF system would not either and there for would not respond. Thus everything shown on the RU plane should show enemy. I also do not believe in that time frame the radar is even be able to function at least not in a perspective of showing on the HUD.

 

Reguardless IMHO if the IFF is able see it and to respond it should also show on TEWS.

 

In my experience the IFF check will always show up on the RWR/TEWS if its within its pickup cone.

 

Its likely those teamkills were becasue they did not IFF (happens to me all the time in MP - ussually not even a 'sorry' as well) or they did IFF, decided to shoot you down anyway and were out of your RWR receive limits.

[Stuge]

I've been killed several times by RU planes shooting via EOS. My complaint is every time I ask they claim to have looked at me via radar to confirm IFF. The issue I have is in the f15 this does not show up on TEWS.

 

IMHO there is no way this will not show up on TEWS and second it would not be on long enough in the RU bird to actually determine IFF. Iff is an interrogation based system. If the TEWS cannot pick up and show the signal therefor the IFF system would not either and there for would not respond. Thus everything shown on the RU plane should show enemy. I also do not believe in that time frame the radar is even be able to function at least not in a perspective of showing on the HUD.

 

Reguardless IMHO if the IFF is able see it and to respond it should also show on TEWS.

 

Had you actually tested the EOS you might have noticed that switching radar on (and thus IFFing) after an IR lock has already been established doesn't spike the target's RWR. Not even if you leave the lock on.

 

This has been the case for several years now.

 

Whether it's a bug or a feature, I do not know... it used to give a spike in the past.

[karambiatos]

Had you actually tested the EOS you might have noticed that switching radar on (and thus IFFing) after an IR lock has already been established doesn't spike the target's RWR. Not even if you leave the lock on.

 

This has been the case for several years now.

 

Whether it's a bug or a feature, I do not know... it used to give a spike in the past.

 

could be intentional since RL (Cyrillic hud) never shows up next to the TL, so its not scaning or is locking, but is in somekind of standby mode?

[GGTharos]

Nope, it's a bug UNLESS it's strictly powering the IFF antenna.

[Weta43]

If it's physically possible in the real aircraft to do that, then as it's not bringing on an 'emitting' warning, but is giving IFF information, the natural thing to assume would be it's supposed to be modelling that it's

strictly powering the IFF antenna

and not a bug.

[GGTharos]

No, it is NOT the natural thing to assume that. This all depends on the information you get back and what you can/can't do after doing this.

This is absolutely unintended behavior in the game.

[Weta43]

If in real life it is possible to IFF without triggering the RWR, then intended or not, it's more real having it as a feature than not.

 

If it's not possible to IFF without triggering the target's RWR, then it's not realistic and should be removed.

 

If it's unfair that only the Su-27 can do something in the sim that all the FC3 aircraft should be able to do - the thing to do would be to extend the capability to all, not remove it from 1.

[GGTharos]

There's no hint whatsoever that the Su-27 can accomplish an IFF check without powering the radar on.

 

Not that it would be impossible, it just doesn't appear to be an option. Realistically, more clarification of what is in the manual is required.

 

If it's unfair that only the Su-27 can do something in the sim that all the FC3 aircraft should be able to do - the thing to do would be to extend the capability to all, not remove it from 1.

[Weta43]

"Realistically, more clarification of what is in the manual is required."

 

True :) ..

[Stuge]

Side note: this functionality seems the to be the same in all russian fighters. Spike is given only if SARH is fired, and possibly when IR lock is lost(while radar lock remains), whether it is switched off, gimbal limit reached, or thermal signature disappears (haven't tested this thoroughly).

[GGTharos]

Yep, I'm not terribly fussed about it right now, especially on FC3 level stuff.

[pr1malr8ge]

One would think even if the the radar could strictly only transmit IFF that the receiving plane would generate an unknown spike that is received an invalid IFF interrogation. You would also suspect the same receivers on the plane for the IFF are also for the RWR for weight and simplicity. Thus the two are linked and if it's able to trigger iff it to also should trigger at the very least an unknown threat. [id still think unless it was a great distance would be able to logic the type]

[GGTharos]

The IFF antennae and radio operate on a completely different frequency band than the radar. I'm not even certain that the RWR would know how to pick it up, and it may not even physically be able to.

 

An interrogation is very ambiguous too, you can't necessarily tell where it's coming from. Unless you have something like COMBAT TREE, and even then hard to tell.

[pr1malr8ge]

Ok, so [from what Im gathering] the IFF antenna for both TX/RX is only in the nose. So it is safe to conclude that anything directly behind the plane cannot see or be seen by the IFF since it would have to travel through the airframe/engine/etc.? I would have thought that just like the RWR it would have external antana's on key pickup points.

[GGTharos]

The interrogator is in the nose (typically). The interrogator is one part of the system. For the longest time F-16s for example had an IFF responder only, but no interrogator.

 

The F-15 has the interrogator antennae mounted right on the radar dish, and an AWACS would probably have a similar set-up.

 

The responder will use a different set of antennae, potentially shared with other radios.

 

For example:

 

 

[karambiatos]

So it turns out if you lock someone and have turn on EOS then turn off the radar so that you are tracking the target with thermals, the targeted plane continues getting a lock.

[pr1malr8ge]

So it turns out if you lock someone and have turn on EOS then turn off the radar so that you are tracking the target with thermals, the targeted plane continues getting a lock.

 

No if you have someone locked in EOS, then turn on radar to IFF them they show no lock nor any spike on the rwr..

 

From what someone has recently just said that it will not even show up if you leave the radar on so long as you maintain a thermal lock via EOS.

 

If the latter part of keeping radar on with an eos lock and NO spike is show on RWR this is a huge bug that should be immediately remedied.

[karambiatos]

Im talking about the other way around, lock someone with radar turn on EOS turn off the radar, now you are tracking with EOS only, the targeted plane still gets a lock warning.

 

So there's some horrible glitch happening with EOS.

[pr1malr8ge]

Im talking about the other way around, lock someone with radar turn on EOS turn off the radar, now you are tracking with EOS only, the targeted plane still gets a lock warning.

 

So there's some horrible glitch happening with EOS.

 

 

Never had that happen that I am aware of.

 

how did you come about this conclusion?

[Frostie]

If the latter part of keeping radar on with an eos lock and NO spike is show on RWR this is a huge bug that should be immediately remedied.

 

Bug or intentional feature?

You can't call something a definite bug without fully understanding how the system works in the real world, it could be the case that a transponder still works with the radar in standby. An iff transponder is not a radar so the idea of a transponder triggering off an RWR with a 29 signal is bizarre, that's like getting spiked by every radio wave in the sky.