SU27 and F15 bvr issues

[Nerd1000]

didnt expect to come back to this xD

 

seriously ED could just add the SU27SK with its R77s and possibly R27EP's to level the field, they should at least considering the eurofighter coming up, cause its going to be a tad ridiculous if it shows up and all we have is MIG29A and S, SU27S, MIG21 Bis

 

while the SU35BM or an SU37 or such would be epic, i doubt they can get data on either, maybe the original SU35 however could be an option, but the SU27SK would be best for the game IMHO and maybe add china with a J-11 cause well, itd be cool if we could get a J-11 and an F-15J, and maybe an F-2A and F-16C(im all for the F-16C cause it will give the Mig29S a fair opponent)

 

Isn't the F/A 18 considered to be very comparable to the MiG-29?

[Drona]

Isn't the F/A 18 considered to be very comparable to the MiG-29?

 

Only in a dogfight are both planes comparable. In BVR, the F/A 18 outclasses the MiG29. The MiG was built with a different purpose altogether.

[*Rage*]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8KiatNmckBIV01QeU5XNzRCc2c/view?usp=sharing

 

1hr mark watch first aim120 go vertical straight off the rail. This is common with aim120c. I've never seen any RU missile do that. [minus those trying to do it and have a nose high launch]

 

Lol. You're so upset about that one missile that misstracked? I just posted to you systematic testing with hundreds of missiles fired under controlled reproducible conditions that shows almost half of all missiles misstracking. Whether they go ballistic, or misstrack to a random chaff in the sky is almost irrelevant. The result is the same. Here is the missile thread if you want to provide yourself with some context and background before you dig yourself another hole.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=101998

 

There is an equivalent thread on the Russian side of the forum as well. Also if you feel that FC3 is the problem than you're free to not play it or wait till a full module is released. Until then most people feel that the flanker and and eagles modeling is reasonable within the limits of the sim. Both are missing some very important functionality but you're just whining that someone told you the F15 is just super awesome and your in game experience is letting you down. Have you flown an F15? Have you fired a missile? I didn't think so. You still have not presented any real data. Either in game or real life.

 

You just want more awesome sauce.

Edited August 3, 2015 by ///Rage

[*Rage*]

didnt expect to come back to this xD

 

seriously ED could just add the SU27SK with its R77s and possibly R27EP's to level the field, they should at least considering the eurofighter coming up, cause its going to be a tad ridiculous if it shows up and all we have is MIG29A and S, SU27S, MIG21 Bis

 

while the SU35BM or an SU37 or such would be epic, i doubt they can get data on either, maybe the original SU35 however could be an option, but the SU27SK would be best for the game IMHO and maybe add china with a J-11 cause well, itd be cool if we could get a J-11 and an F-15J, and maybe an F-2A and F-16C(im all for the F-16C cause it will give the Mig29S a fair opponent)

 

The Su-27SM would be ideal to model. That depends on whether ED have the data and permission to model it fully and unfortunately I think the answer to at least one of those questions is a negative:(

 

The Typhoon will punish everyone:)

[tovivan]

The Typhoon will punish everyone:)

 

More like seal-club everyone! xD It'll be WarThunder Tier IV and V all-over again, just this time the Germans will be EF2000 and the hapless seals will be the Russians again. lol.

 

Er, do I remember correctly one patch months ago introducing chopper "immunity" to being detected by airplane radar? Was it overall or just under specific speed?

 

The Su-27SM would be ideal to model.

 

In complete agreement. :beer:

In addition to modern electronics that could compete with Western it would also give us the R77 and the Kh-31, plus Kh-29... :D Cause right now and more obviously with new models the Su-27 is like an Opel Manta 400 in a race against Citroen DS3 WRC. xD

 

EDIT: don't misunderstand me, I would love to have the 400 (or fly the 27S), but I would not go in a serious race against the DS3 (fighting against EF2000), not if I could help it. :D

 

Off-topic, I've been wondering a long time what kind and how much of a pull does ED have with the Russian military. Would be seriously interesting to know.

Edited August 3, 2015 by tovivan

[blkspade]

Realistically the new western planes coming out aren't going to change the effective strategies in the Russian aircraft. You can largely treat the F-18 like an F-15. You won't know what you're fighting for sure until an active is inbound with the possibility of slightly longer range IR missile inbound. Just behave like everything is a Mig29. The F-14 has a theoretical advantage with the 54C, but will likely suffer the same flaws as the 120, but with longer range. At shorter ranges they won't even have 120's, and ETs/ERs are better than 9Ms/7Ms. Worse case scenario is the AI RIO will be epic a spotting IR missile launches fired in a visible area.

 

You say look at the K/D between the Eagle/Flanker, ignoring the level of success the Eagle has had IRL. Like its somehow strange that F-15 should succeed. Sim flankers are doing OK, in the hands of competent pilots. Limiting yourself to the broken single player experience would be sad.

 

Never said conspiracy. :beer:

 

But what would be nice is if they binned the S version and instead modeled a newer version, such as SM, something that would be more competitive to the US planes, especially those still in development.

 

The 15 is bad enough (along with literal flood of players flying it compared to russian planes... reason I stopped going on combat servers as a jet pilot), but now the US pilots are getting the F-14, the F-18, etc. and I'm getting a seriously bad feeling that with such obsolete avionics and systems Russian pilots will be made into simple cannon fodder and kill ratio risers for US pilots. What is the use flying a Russian plane in combat then?

 

The present situation is bad enough (just look at kill and death scores of F-15 vs Su27), but the near future looks very bleak and, what is worse, there seems to be no playing-field-leveler coming out for Russians at all.

 

Unless I missed something (it's been a while since I checked the list of upcoming modules) there is NO modern Russian fighter with modern systems being worked on at all by either ED, BST or any third party developer, only western tech.

 

Personally, when these modules come out it will be what will stop me visiting combat servers and for me will from then on be only aerobatics on multiplayer while combat only on singleplayer. It won't be worth it, since I fly for my personal enjoyment, not for frustration and to give someone else nice scores. Wonder how many others will either then switch over to Western planes or give up multiplayer combat. Only time will tell.

 

/whining

[Frostie]

 

1hr mark watch first aim120 go vertical straight off the rail. This is common with aim120c. I've never seen any RU missile do that. [minus those trying to do it and have a nose high launch]

 

I'd say this is you having some network issues, this is not a common occurrence IMO.

 

 

 

Second the fact remains that the aim120 and aim7 is severely hindered compared to its real life counterpart. My SME claims confirmed launch at a much greater distance then what is capable in game against an evasive target[drone much smaller then that of a SU27] with a kill. [i'm not talking about launching in game at suposed max range. Im talking about probability of kill in game which seems to be 5-10nm respectively]

10nmi against online opponents that like to get low in the mountains, yes, but against drones you say.

 

Attached are some simple tacviews of kills made at 20-25nmi against the AI which are probably much better at defending against missiles than drones or players. That's right 20-25nmi, this doesn't justify that missiles are working correctly because it's a known fact that ALL missiles are not working correctly with regard to seeker logic. But still you can't go shouting around that DCS AIM-120 only works at 5-10nmi when clearly it's so much better than that.

Aim120.rar

[Kunze13]

Isn't the F/A 18 considered to be very comparable to the MiG-29?

 

The F/A-18 would more tie in as an adversary to the SU-33

 

and the F-16 deserves some love too xD

[pr1malr8ge]

Lol. You're so upset about that one missile that misstracked? I just posted to you systematic testing with hundreds of missiles fired under controlled reproducible conditions that shows almost half of all missiles misstracking. Whether they go ballistic, or misstrack to a random chaff in the sky is almost irrelevant. The result is the same. Here is the missile thread if you want to provide yourself with some context and background before you dig yourself another hole.

Im not upset over ONE missile, It's not a one off issue. It happens all the time. I watched your tracks mate your missiles went roughly where they should have gone. None that I looked at went off in any random direction like the aim120s do. Never said neither side had any problems but stop deflecting the issue that the aim120 has a major issue. As far as digging my self a hole. You're just another claimed internet expert who is butt hurt over your beloved SU27 and thinks it is the next best thing since sliced bread. On a side not I love the SU think it's a Gorgeous aircraft and know its deadly, just the RU cockpits make me want to hurl my lunch in your face!

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=101998

 

There is an equivalent thread on the Russian side of the forum as well. Also if you feel that FC3 is the problem than you're free to not play it or wait till a full module is released. Until then most people feel that the flanker and and eagles modeling is reasonable within the limits of the sim. Both are missing some very important functionality but you're just whining that someone told you the F15 is just super awesome and your in game experience is letting you down. Have you flown an F15? Have you fired a missile? I didn't think so. You still have not presented any real data. Either in game or real life.

Again you're grasping at staws. Everything I have said is from an actual F15 pilot. You're upset because someone an actual f15 pilot said it is better then what the game depicts which goes against your self perceived GURU of military aircraft. Nope I have not flown an F15 in real life never claimed to have, Which obviously says I have not fired a missile from one either. Again when I personally know someone who has, That person who has flown this sim on my computer with me there states it's not right and give an explanation on whats not right gives me that ability to state such things. Given the state that you are butthurt over this. If the f15 pilot where the one typing this you would discredit him also. There is no arguing with a troll such as your self. Even if the pilot where still actively flying the f15 r took it up to the FLs. Recorded and performed the same maneuvers that are causing the departure of flight you would still cry and whine and say its not the same.

 

You just want more awesome sauce.

I've earned my awesome sauce outside of the internet so take your UK antics and go back to your tea and crumpets. *degree in mecanical engineering, personal Pilots Liscense (SEL*I, MEL*I, & commecial), EMT, FF1&2 & Raced Motocross. I'm not an internet cronie like you I've went out in the world and earned my AWESOME SAUCE!

 

 

 

Think I do believe I've earned my awesome sauce. Next time you want to try and troll someone who you believe hasn't done anything better be sure you know it!

Edited August 3, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[Kunze13]

*grabs popcorn*

 

this is getting entertaining xD

 

also id love to know why chaff never works against 120's for me

[Frostie]

First I don't think there is any need for personal insults and résumé bravado, it's pretty sad. There are plenty of other people here in these forums with far greater knowledge and credentials and you especially don't know the guy you're disrespecting, believe me I know plenty of so called Engineers that couldn't screw a light bulb in.

 

Again you're grasping at staws. Everything I have said is from an actual F15 pilot. You're upset because someone an actual f15 pilot said it is better then what the game depicts which goes against your self perceived GURU of military aircraft. Nope I have not flown an F15 in real life never claimed to have, Which obviously says I have not fired a missile from one either. Again when I personally know someone who has, That person who has flown this sim on my computer with me there states it's not right and give an explanation on whats not right gives me that ability to state such things. Given the state that you are butthurt over this. If the f15 pilot where the one typing this you would discredit him also. There is no arguing with a troll such as your self. Even if the pilot where still actively flying the f15 r took it up to the FLs. Recorded and performed the same maneuvers that are causing the departure of flight you would still cry and whine and say its not the same.

 

The problem here is the connection between DCS-You-and the 'Pilot', you're telling him one thing when in actual fact you don't even understand the sim properly.

 

Rage has gone through a great deal of testing as others have done to come to their conclusions while you are basing your conclusions on a missed missile and missiles not making kills in multiplayer.

 

And in regard to the aircrafts handling I don't think anyone has disputed that, I think it is already known that the transonic roll is not realistic.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Frostie

[karambiatos]

everyone spewing "proof" and no barbecue sauce anywhere.

appart from the acmis, very instructional, thanks for that.

[pr1malr8ge]

I'd say this is you having some network issues, this is not a common occurrence IMO. I can respect your thoughts on a networking issue but that is not the case I no longer do ME and work in the TELCO IND networking is the last thing causing any issues but to give you my network I am running a PFSence router built on an alix APU1d4 running win7U with an intel nic. That and I am not the only person who have said this has happened to them. Scorch has made the complaint and I'm also sure Sweeper mentioned it also but don't quote me on Sweeper saying it.

 

 

 

10nmi against online opponents that like to get low in the mountains, yes, but against drones you say. 10nm against an evasive target in the open I'm not even concerned with the possibility of masking that is not what I'm talking about.

 

Attached are some simple tacviews of kills made at 20-25nmi against the AI which are probably much better at defending against missiles than drones or players. That's right 20-25nmi, this doesn't justify that missiles are working correctly because it's a known fact that ALL missiles are not working correctly with regard to seeker logic. But still you can't go shouting around that DCS AIM-120 only works at 5-10nmi when clearly it's so much better than that.

I've made 30+nm kills online against players also. But stupidity is a minor factor. Shooting at 40+k ft mach 1.5+ against an idiot isn't part of this discussion. clearly there is an issue that all missiles are borked. But the AIM120 is worse off then the RU missiles!

At least you're not being a condescending troll. I don't need to to see your tacks I believe you've killed further but that was against AI and well who truly gives a crap about AI.

 

 

***** just realized this was from someone else.*** Sorry Frostie I thought you were //rage

Edited August 3, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[SinusoidDelta]

First I don't think there is any need for personal insults and résumé bravado, it's pretty sad. There are plenty of other people here in these forums with far greater knowledge and credentials and you especially don't know the guy you're disrespecting, believe me I know plenty of so called Engineers that couldn't screw a light bulb in.

 

 

 

The problem here is the connection between DCS-You-and the 'Pilot', you're telling him one thing when in actual fact you don't even understand the sim properly.

 

Rage has gone through a great deal of testing as others have done to come to their conclusions while you are basing your conclusions on a missed missile and missiles not making kills in multiplayer.

 

And in regard to the aircrafts handling I don't think anyone has disputed that, I think it is already known that the transonic roll is not realistic.

 

In regards to the aircrafts handling, I haven't see any technical details describing the issue. In my experience the issue exists in the subsonic regime as well and is not exclusive to supersonic flight making it somewhat of a misnomer. 'm going to put together a summary and thread dedicated to analyzing this problem but it will take a few days to compile all the data.

[Kunze13]

what im wondering is why i never once have had an aim120 track chaff

[pr1malr8ge]

First I don't think there is any need for personal insults and résumé bravado, it's pretty sad. There are plenty of other people here in these forums with far greater knowledge and credentials and you especially don't know the guy you're disrespecting, believe me I know plenty of so called Engineers that couldn't screw a light bulb in.

I did not bring up the resume bravado, you can stick that with //RAGE. He is the one bringing in the AWESOME Sauce comment. Just because I stated I have a degree in ME doesn't mean much other then towards the Awesome Sauce comment. I don't even use it. I work in the telco industry. I think I can screw in a ligh bulb just fine and accomplished a lot of other things.

 

 

 

The problem here is the connection between DCS-You-and the 'Pilot', you're telling him one thing when in actual fact you don't even understand the sim properly. I am not telling him one thing. He flew the sim. Had I have just said what was going on and he responded then No you would be correct and I would not have commented about it until he actually flew the sim.

 

Rage has gone through a great deal of testing as others have done to come to their conclusions while you are basing your conclusions on a missed missile and missiles not making kills in multiplayer. I am basing my conclusion on more then just 1 missile. I also have talked many times to my PILOT about it. I've watched plenty of tacview replays and have seen a trend.

 

And in regard to the aircrafts handling I don't think anyone has disputed that, I think it is already known that the transonic roll is not realistic.

Well seems you know it. But in the convo with rage he refuses to believe it.

 

Thank you for the decency of your thoughts. My first post was to bring up to light that those who keep making statements that the F15 was deliberately given an edge over the flankers by ED was false. //RAGE came in here trying to counter everything as if no one has said such things etc etc.

 

This is a sim there are unequivocal issues but ED hasn't given the f15 anything above what it truly is capable of.

[GGTharos]

what im wondering is why i never once have had an aim120 track chaff

 

Because 120s have very robust CM rejection. If you want to see a120 track chaff, realistically you need a120A or MAYBE a very early software load 120B.

[Kunze13]

Because 120s have very robust CM rejection. If you want to see a120 track chaff, realistically you need a120A or MAYBE a very early software load 120B.

 

 

any advice on dodging it in mid to close range?

[*Rage*]

clearly there is an issue that all missiles are borked. But the AIM120 is worse off then the RU missiles!

 

Again with untested, baseless statements! Ive given you, and everyone else on this forum, evidence that missile tracking for the R and ER series is flawed. Much more than the 120 series (at least in tracking). Ive also sent a whole entire other series of tests to ED for them to consider as well. I'm of the opinion that tracking is the main issue that needs to be rectified. Others feel that the ranges are the main impediment to a better experience and have offered up their own work on this forum and to ED.

 

What have you offered apart from unquantifiable statements and personal insults?

 

I'm off to have my tea and crumpets;) It would be nice if you could prove your above statement with data and tracks but at this stage i'll accept more personal insults and pictures of motorcycles flying through the air instead:)

Edited August 3, 2015 by ///Rage

[*Rage*]

any advice on dodging it in mid to close range?

 

Within 15km and at high or medium altitude you're probably just gonna eat it.

 

At >15km and low with a little terrain masking you may be able to extend away if youre lucky.

 

At ranges less than 15km you're best bet is a perfect notch at slow speeds. Thats very risky however and even if you do survive youre now merged in a very disadvantageous position. Getting in a 1v1 within 15km, head on, against an active carrying fighter is not a good idea.

Edited August 3, 2015 by ///Rage