Cruising is painful..

[bongodriver]

It is a joke? :huh:, ..NEUTRAL is not tail heavy, like we have now in DCS:BF-109K4 ver 1.5, ... NEUTRAL trim mean, level flight, and Bf-109 elevator trim was setting for level flight at cruise power. Not for crazy looping hands off.:D

 

Sorry Otto, I don't mean to sound like another hostile voice ganging up against you but in every aircraft I have flown the neutral trim position produces a pitch up in the cruise, the neutral position is almost always the setting used for maintaining a climb which is why most pre take off checklists call for trim to neutral.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

It is a joke? :huh:, ..NEUTRAL is not tail heavy, like we have now in DCS:BF-109K4 ver 1.5, ... NEUTRAL trim mean, level flight, and Bf-109 elevator trim was setting for level flight at cruise power. Not for crazy looping hands off.:D

I could say the same, it's a joke? Neutral DOESN'T mean level flight at all, and where on Earth does level flight means cruising? You can level flight whatever speed you intend to.

 

109 trim actually IS set to level cruise. Have you flown the DCS 109 module? May be you're mistaking WT...

 

S!

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Sorry Otto, I don't mean to sound like another hostile voice ganging up against you but in every aircraft I have flown the neutral trim position produces a pitch up in the cruise, the neutral position is almost always the setting used for maintaining a climb which is why most pre take off checklists call for trim to neutral.

well, ..and .. what are you doing at climb&combat power? :music_whistling:

Remember that the bf-109 was pre-trimmed on ground for cruise power, NOT for climb power.

 

No aircraft properly trimmed (for level and hands-off flight ) have pitch-up moment. If there is a pitch-up moment the airplane is not properly trimmed

Edited October 10, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[bongodriver]

well, ..and .. what are you doing at climb&combat power? :music_whistling:

Remember that the bf-109 was pre-trimmed on ground for cruise power, NOT for climb power.

No aircraft properly trimmed (for level and hands-off flight ) have pitch-up moment. If there is a pitch-up moment the airplane is not properly trimmed

 

Not sure what you mean, at climb power I'm climbing, at cruise power with neutral trim I still pitch up because the function of trim is produced according to airspeed.

 

Cockpit adjustable manual trim is not 'pre-trimmed' for cruise.

 

if an aircraft is properly trimmed then it will maintain whatever condition you are trimming it for, you can trim for climb, cruise or descent and in various configurations, the point I am making is that aircraft that have neutral trim set will pitch up at cruise power.

Edited October 10, 2015 by bongodriver

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Not sure what you mean, at climb power I'm climbing, at cruise power with neutral trim I still pitch up because the function of trim is produced according to airspeed.

If you are fliying hands off in cruise and aircraft is pitching up in neutral trim position, you're not in the right cruise speed for that airplane. And you have a lot of drag, and i´m afraid you are wasting fuel.

Cockpit adjustable manual trim is not 'pre-trimmed' for cruise.

But YES in the Bf-109. for trim neutral position, bending the fixed elevator trim tabs.

 

if an aircraft is properly trimmed then it will maintain whatever condition you are trimming it for, you can trim for climb, cruise or descent and in various configurations, the point I am making is that aircraft that have neutral trim set will pitch up at cruise power.

 

If you are flying in a single engine airplane with neutral trim selected, and the airplane take a nose-up attitude, probably you are not flying at trimmed cruise power, or you have not calculated the weight & balance properly. :smilewink:

Edited October 10, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[wolfstriked]

Do the WW2 planes have too much lift? The reason I ask this is that if you bounce on landing the plane goes back up but then hovers when it should instead bounce up and come right down again as you WERE actually stalling the plane when you touched.

 

Another reason I think this is that you cant seem to be able to lift the tail wheel off the ground and fly with two front wheels rolling on ground when in alot of take off videos of WW2 planes they do just that.In DCS you lift the tail wheel off ground and then plane suddenly shoots up wards and starts to stall.

[Crumpp]

Sorry Otto, I don't mean to sound like another hostile voice ganging up against you but in every aircraft I have flown the neutral trim position produces a pitch up in the cruise, the neutral position is almost always the setting used for maintaining a climb which is why most pre take off checklists call for trim to neutral.

 

Two different topics, two different settings, and you guys are talking past each other creating confusion.

 

Zero Elevator or neutral elevator means the trim is set to align the elevator with the fixed portion of the horizontal stabilizer and the corresponding trim setting to achieve zero ELEVATOR angle at rotation are what determines take off trim settings in an aircraft.

 

Some manufacturers of small aircraft do set the take off trim at climb out. This is not zero elevator setting, it is trimmed for a climb. Zero elevator is important in reducing drag at rotation speed for take off.

 

That is NOT the same as the zero TRIM mark on the trim datum. The Zero Trim mark aligns the trim tab or adjustable horizontal stabilizer with elevator. The Zero Trim Mark is set at the design coefficient of lift for the mission the aircraft is expected to perform.

 

The zero trim mark on the datum has NOTHING to do with climb out after take off.

 

You are correct that both correspond to a speed.

 

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/zeroelevatorangle/ZeroElevatorAngle_web_screen.pdf

[bongodriver]

If you are pitching up in neutral, you're not in the right cruise speed for that airplane. And you have a lot of drag, and i´m afraid you are wasting fuel.

 

There is not really a range of cruise speeds, you either cruise at just above Min drag speed or you are not in a cruise at all, it seems the only thing being wasted here is breath.

 

 

But YES in the Bf-109. for trim neutral position, bending the fixed elevator trim tabs.

 

it would help us greatly if we could talk about the same subject, clearly everybody else is discussing the cockpit adjustable stabiliser trim.

 

 

If you are flying in a single engine airplane with neutral trim selected, and the airplane take a nose-up attitude, probably you are not flying at trimmed cruise power, or you have not calculated the weight & balance properly. :smilewink:

 

when...not if I fly single engine aircraft, often on training flights in my capacity as a flying instructor I demonstrate the need to trim the aircraft pitch down to maintain the level cruise, this is because the neutral trim position we have just used in the climb starts to produce a marked pitch up force as the aircraft accelerates from climb speed to cruise, and this happens because the weight and balance of the aircraft is correct.

[Crumpp]

But YES in the Bf-109. for trim neutral position, bending the fixed elevator trim tabs.

 

YES. The fixed trim tab is bent to align the adjustable stabilizer with the elevator at the design coefficient of lift. That probably does not mean cruise flight in a fighter, Otto. More like the vicinity of Va.

 

In a conventional trim system what would be an adjustable trim TAB that gets aligned with the elevator at the zero trim mark.

 

With an adjustable stabilizer, that tab is used to align the elevator and the adjustable horizontal stabilizer with the zero trim mark on painted on the side of the aircraft.

[Crumpp]

This English translation of the Bf-109 Flugzeugen Handbuch says the trim is set to +1 for take off.

 

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/pdf/bf109g2_english.zip

[bongodriver]

Two different topics, two different settings, and you guys are talking past each other creating confusion.

 

Zero Elevator or neutral elevator means the trim is set to align the elevator with the fixed portion of the horizontal stabilizer and the corresponding trim setting to achieve zero ELEVATOR angle at rotation are what determines take off trim settings in an aircraft.

 

Some manufacturers of small aircraft do set the take off trim at climb out. This is not zero elevator setting, it is trimmed for a climb. Zero elevator is important in reducing drag at rotation speed for take off.

 

That is NOT the same as the zero TRIM mark on the trim datum. The Zero Trim mark aligns the trim tab or adjustable horizontal stabilizer with elevator. The Zero Trim Mark is set at the design coefficient of lift for the mission the aircraft is expected to perform.

 

The zero trim mark on the datum has NOTHING to do with climb out after take off.

 

You are correct that both correspond to a speed.

 

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/zeroelevatorangle/ZeroElevatorAngle_web_screen.pdf

 

This is extracted directly from the .pdf file you have linked, it is verbatim what I am saying, no confusion on my part sorry

 

 

Elevator deflection produces both increased parasite and induced drag, as does trim tab deflection. However, trim tab deflections produce much smaller drag increases than elevator deflections. Consequently, zero elevator deflection is desired but the trim tab should be set to give the speed for climb out

 

or in my understanding of it 'neutral elevator' trim, this may not be 'zero trim' on some aircraft but it may be on others, that will be entirely dependent on the individual design I accept.

[Crumpp]

Neutral trim, zero trim on the datum, and trimmed for climb are three different things.

 

They are different things with specific definitions.

 

Please understand what the heck you are talking about before you give me negative reputation for something you do not know.

 

Just own your mistake like an adult...thank you.

[Crumpp]

or in my understanding of it 'neutral elevator' trim, this may not be 'zero trim' on some aircraft but it may be on others, that will be entirely dependent on the individual design I accept.

 

Really...so your misunderstanding trumps the actual definitions of these three different things.

 

:music_whistling:

 

No wonder you think you are right.

[bongodriver]

Neutral trim, zero trim on the datum, and trimmed for climb are three different things.

 

They are different things with specific definitions.

 

Please understand what the heck you are talking about before you give me negative reputation for something you do not know.

 

Just own your mistake like an adult...thank you.

 

The document you linked is the evidence I know the subject well enough, when I make a mistake I always own it, the advice is irony.

[bongodriver]

Really...so your misunderstanding trumps the actual definitions of these three different things.

 

:music_whistling:

 

No wonder you think you are right.

 

The misunderstanding is coming from you, don't let your childish personal agendas dictate the direction of this thread.

Edited October 10, 2015 by bongodriver

[Nedum]

Additional reading for you Nedum:

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/airframes/black6/bk6_flight.htm

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Apologies for posting the same link in two threads, but the reply is on the two different topics.

 

You still didn't answer my question!

None of you did it!

Why?

Is it so hard to make a short track flying the BF109 like in this Vid?

For me I must say... yes.. but if I read all this answers I can't understand why till today not one of you answers my questions!?

Reason?

 

Again, we have a vid from a living German ace in which he is telling us that all this rolling and flip over the wings behaviors are not like that he have experience with. So now we have Americans, English and Russian "test pilots" and all telling us different stories. Not even one story fit with the one from the other one and the voice of the German ace and the logic will be totally ignored!

Why is it not possible that we can trim this bird at a speed higher as 480kph? Any logic solution for this?

I really want to hear it!

All I read in many books is that an English pilot says that the BF109 was extreme stable and there was no point in which she was rolling suddenly, even he pushed the throttle hard. And he could trim her out at any speed. And American pilot told that she was very nervous with a hard tendency to roll. And the Russian test pilot told that he could not trim her out at higher speeds.

The German pilots told us she was a very neutral flying AC, with no tendency to roll much after a hard push at the throttle “…. she was very forgiving and you could trim her at any speed….”

So now do we trust the Ferrari test driver or the BMW test driver if we ask how a Ferrari should handle and feel?

 

You all gave me sources from Pilots from different nations with total different experiences with the same enemy AC!

If we would use pure math then we must cut out what is by one test pilot positive for the same thing and for the other one at the same time negative. Which alone should be a surprise and should let us think about how good these tests really were (propaganda?). 3 tests with 3 different results.. hmm!?

And the end result would be that the K-4 was the worst fighter plane in WWII history!

And this is exact how this plane feels to me right now!

I have flown the BF109 in IL2 and Cliffs over Dover but this BF109 behavior we’ve in DCS is nothing near any BF109 I could fly in any other sim. All other prop planes we have in DCS feel more or less like in Cliffs over Dover or IL2 but the K-4 is an UFO. It doesn’t match in any way with any AC in any other sim.

I have never flown such a bad/beasty AC in a sim before. If this is right how she here handles, she was for sure a big mistake in RL!

 

But it’s only a game and if you like it you like it and this is good!

So I am out here but would still see a track from one of you flying a good looking loop and a Cuban 8!

Edited October 10, 2015 by Nedum

[Sporg]

Nedum, did you try with manual propeller pitch?

 

I did, and when I do, the plane corresponds quite well to Erich Brunottes description.

 

And actually, he indeed mentioned that he preferred to fly with manual pitch.

 

It seems the automatic pitch introduces small variations in flight, that makes the plane feel like it is "twitchy" sometimes.

And maybe, in reality, it is just responding to changes in the torque from the propeller.

 

Maybe give it a try?

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Guys (Bongodriver and Crumpp) do you realize you both are arguing because Otto was talking a completely different thing of you? He doesn't understand English quite well, also don't understand how RL aircraft flies and also he's a tough Luftwhineandwhineandwhiner, so he made you a mess and then you both argue because of his mistakes :shocking:. Reread what you and what Otto wrote, now with that in mind (specially his English blatant flaw) and you'll see a difference.

 

 

 

Do the WW2 planes have too much lift? The reason I ask this is that if you bounce on landing the plane goes back up but then hovers when it should instead bounce up and come right down again as you WERE actually stalling the plane when you touched.

 

Another reason I think this is that you cant seem to be able to lift the tail wheel off the ground and fly with two front wheels rolling on ground when in alot of take off videos of WW2 planes they do just that.In DCS you lift the tail wheel off ground and then plane suddenly shoots up wards and starts to stall.

That's a completely different subject we are talking here. It's not about "lift" or WWII, it's about tail draggers behaviour. You bounce because you're trying a two wheels landing too fast and without keeping in mind the downward momentum generated by the CoG at the instant the main legs touch the ground so for a wheels landing you should push the stick a bit before touch down to counter that momentum. That's hard to master, you should learn how to land three pointed first. Read here for further information.

 

The tail lifting in take off run is also covered in the previous link. You can't lift the tail in a high powered tail dragger pulling the stick into the dashboard. Wheels and propeller gyroscopic effect makes you go out the runway the opposite direction the torque usually affects. You should let the tail raise very gently on its own without forcing the stick. Once you master it with hundreds of flight hours may be you're able to TO as you wish, also pulling the stick to the dashboard, but that's not the case for "newbies" mate (no offence :smilewink:), I myself don't pull the stick at all.

 

S!

Edited October 11, 2015 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Why is it not possible that we can trim this bird at a speed higher as 480kph? Any logic solution for this?

I really want to hear it!

I answer you (again, I don't remember to you but I've said this quite a few times yet... specially to Otto...:cry:). The aircraft is designed like that, that's all :smilewink:. You can take a look on the German graphs about control position and forces posted quite a few times and you'll see how stick has to be kept forward by the pilot. Klaus Plasa, former EADS pilot of the Bf109G4 Rote 7, confirmed she can't be trimmed beyond 450Km/H. You can trim until almost 500Km/H in DCS module, just watch manifold pressure as engine torque won't allow you to trim if you aren't easy with the throttle.

 

You're mistaking those sentences, trimming beyond 450Km/H doesn't mean aircraft isn't stable, or it doesn't fly well, or anything. Also mind previous "things" weren't real simulators but, lets say harder arcades. You can't compare DCS to anything you tried before.

 

S!

 

P.D.: you guys should try to read some of the thousand yet threads covering all this stuff previously...

[NineLine]

It is a joke? :huh:, ..NEUTRAL is not tail heavy, like we have now in DCS:BF-109K4 ver 1.5, ... NEUTRAL trim mean, level flight, and Bf-109 elevator trim was setting for level flight at cruise power. Not for crazy looping hands off.:D

 

Number of pilots talked about it, you only like reading the points that help your crusade maybe, but I have read a couple of pilot notes stating that a trimmed 109 was harder if not impossible to pull out of a high speed dive... now what would that mean to me? Well that means it was tail heavy when it wasnt trimmed (zero or neutral if you like), and that helped pull out of high speed dives, try it will our 109... its the very same, trim full so its nose down, then put it into a dive, then try it without trim(zero or neutral if you like), it performs like those quotes... amazing.

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Number of pilots talked about it, you only like reading the points that help your crusade maybe, but I have read a couple of pilot notes stating that a trimmed 109 was harder if not impossible to pull out of a high speed dive... now what would that mean to me? Well that means it was tail heavy when it wasnt trimmed (zero or neutral if you like), and that helped pull out of high speed dives, try it will our 109... its the very same, trim full so its nose down, then put it into a dive, then try it without trim(zero or neutral if you like), it performs like those quotes... amazing.

 

have you read the Bf-109F diving test (in english) ??

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Diving_Test_109F_W.Nr.9228_ger_eng.pdf

 

.. Is capable the actual DCS:Bf-109K4 of recover a 80º dive at 906Km/h TAS (Mach 0.80) with trim at 1º 15' as the real airplane??

Please, try to do it and share the track.:music_whistling:

Edited October 11, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[NineLine]

have you read the Bf-109F diving test (in english) ??

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Diving_Test_109F_W.Nr.9228_ger_eng.pdf

 

.. Is capable the actual DCS:Bf-109K4 of recover a 80º dive at 906Km/h TAS (Mach 0.80) with trim at 1º 15' as the real airplane??

Please, try to do it and share the track.:music_whistling:

 

I guess the pilot quotes were all lies then huh... cherry pick ;)

 

But the report confirms what I stated as well, that trim effects dive recovery, which is what we see in our module... so thanks for yet another confirmation ;)

 

"If you trim the elevator just 0.5° more

nose heavy the force in direction push is less, but it is not possible to

recover just by using the stick, it is necessary to use the horizontal

stabilizer trim"

 

Also seems to suggest just that, that 1º 15' was probably the max you wanted to be trimmed when diving...

 

"This trials started with idle dives (automatic propeller pitch, n = 1500) to

estimate an horizontal stabilizer trim setting, that makes it possible to

recover a dive with the stick"

 

Seems to suggest more was not possible to recover from.

Edited October 11, 2015 by NineLine

[Crumpp]

Quote:

Elevator deflection produces both increased parasite and induced drag, as does trim tab deflection. However, trim tab deflections produce much smaller drag increases than elevator deflections. Consequently, zero elevator deflection is desired but the trim tab should be set to give the speed for climb out

 

:doh:

 

Still insisting you are right?

[jester_]

It seems the automatic pitch introduces small variations in flight, that makes the plane feel like it is "twitchy" sometimes.

And maybe, in reality, it is just responding to changes in the torque from the propeller.

 

The auto pitch control I believe tries to target a specific RPM correlating to the current manifold pressure setting combined with current speed; in other words, you're somewhat right. As you move the throttle back and forth, the RPM of your engine is trying to dial itself in to whatever the manifold pressure is. The twitchyness comes from the way the prop is moving itself. As you increase or decrease speed, you may hear a "BZ! BZZ! BZ! BZ! BZ!". That's the sound of your pitch adjusting itself in increments. Instead of a smooth adjustment, it's making very sharp, small and brief changes.

 

That said, I don't 100% for sure know that's what's causing the jerkiness that a lot of people say they experience. That's my hypothesis. I fly with manual pitch control and I do not have any really control issues.

Edited October 11, 2015 by jester_

[bongodriver]

:doh:

 

Still insisting you are right?

 

Yes, not sure how your highlighted 'but' changes anything.