Cruising is painful..

[JG13]

You guys are silly, you'll just have to tell everyone that complains what joystick to buy and what curve to use. :megalol:

[Ala13_ManOWar]

TM HOTAS Warthog, no curves at all :lol: :lol: :thumbup:.

 

S!

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

If you fly with no curve the plane is easy to keep the nose down, but if you add a curve you have to hold the joystick forward a lot more. A lot of people use curves for different reasons. Unless DCS is going to come out with a force feedback controller I think they should reconsider this feature or I don't think you will ever hear the end of it, not from me but from every new player who jumps in for a dogfight quick match and there plane does a backflip.

I agree, ..and IMO this conclusion of JG13 is a symptom of the elevator trim control neutral point, is not in the right position.

 

JG13,

 

These airplanes were designed at a time when stability and control engineering came into its own as separate discipline of aeronautical engineering. The engineers of that time were also pioneers of compressible aerodynamics, transonic, and supersonic aerodynamics. It was an exciting time to be involved in aeronautical sciences. The World War II designs reflect this and their stability and control characteristics are as important to the airplane as it's wings/engine.

You are overlooking that the Dr. Eng. Willy Messerschmitt, was a expert in aircraft design, even prior to 1935 when he start the Bf-109 project.

In 1932 the BFW/Messerschmitt M-35 was a aerobatic aircraft capable to recover from a spin just by letting go of the controls. It was the stepping stone to the Bf-108 and Bf-109.

For the standards of design, in WWII era, Messerschmitt designs was very advanced, in handling, stability and performances.

I think, iis very difficult believe that Bf-109K4 was capable of do a crazy-auto-loop (as in DCS now), with aircraft trimmed in the neutral mark, taking account these precedents.

 

The design of Bf-109 was extensively tested in wind tunnel, and test flight, and there are a lot of comment, in books talking about his stability and perfect handling qualities.

[Crumpp]

And, Otto?

 

What is your point?

 

That Mtt knew everything about stability and control design or that the 1940's was not a time great progress in aviation?

 

It looks like you are making a ham-fisted attempt at inventing an argument.

 

For the standards of design, in WWII era, Messerschmitt designs was very advanced, in handling, stability and performances.

 

Yes, I think that is reflected in the game, Otto.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Crumpp

[NineLine]

For the standards of design, in WWII era, Messerschmitt designs was very advanced, in handling, stability and performances.

 

Yes, and thanks to ED, we get to enjoy those very things with the 109, I agree with you, its great. Also thanks for posting that wind tunnel picture, you are right, looks like its a little nose up there too... very good points Otto, thanks for finally coming around!!

[ZaltysZ]

Is there a difference between FFB and non FFB? Does FFB stick want to rest off center by itself in same situation (same speed, trim, no curves)?

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Well said Sith.

 

S!

[Ala13_ManOWar]

And, Otto?

 

What is your point?

His point is 109 was a so perfect machine it's impossible he aren't able to fly like a experten and he can't in DCS. That and also zero trim was a magical thing in 109 usable in high speed cruising, take off and landing :music_whistling:. So DCS has to be wrong, wrong, wrong :doh:.

 

S!

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Otto,

 

if you can, please take the time to read, for instance, chapters 4, 5, 6 and 7 of:

 

http://flightlab.net/Flightlab.net/Download_Course_Notes.html

 

It's not 109-specific but covers the base concepts in terms of Aerodynamics in a very comprehensive and easy to read text.

 

I use it all of the time :)

[Nedum]

Otto,

 

if you can, please take the time to read, for instance, chapters 4, 5, 6 and 7 of:

 

http://flightlab.net/Flightlab.net/Download_Course_Notes.html

 

It's not 109-specific but covers the base concepts in terms of Aerodynamics in a very comprehensive and easy to read text.

 

I use it all of the time :)

 

The important part is "...It's not 109-specific...".

So why is the 109 the only bird in DCS with this strange hard effects of the propeller momentum?

It's the only bird that trys to change the roll behavior if you change the RPM only a few degrees. And the K-4 does the exact opposite of what the german LW ace said in the vid. The K-4 was a very stable flying plane. No shacking or sudden flips over the wings. In DCS the K-4 becomes very nervous and you can no go against the momentum of the prop even with full rudder.

He said very clear in the vid he has never such a shacking over the wings at low speed.

So we have a vid of a real pilot but what he said is not we have right now.

Is all what he said only relevant as long it fits to the current flight behavior or why we don't use what he is saying?

 

As I have said in another thread. Please, can somone show me a track where one of you fly a good loop and a cuban 8!?

Till today the k-4 is the only plane I can't manage this as I can with all other planes. This bird flips and rolls without no reason much more as any other prop plane in this game, even at higher speeds. But it shouldn't or for what were the front flaps again? For a more unstable flight behavior at low and high speeds? :huh:

For me the K-4 is not any near of what the LW ace told us!

Edited October 9, 2015 by Nedum

[AussieFX]

The important part is "...It's not 109-specific...".

So why is the 109 the only bird in DCS with this strange hard effects of the propeller momentum?

It's the only bird that trys to change the roll behavior if you change the RPM only a few degrees.

Auto pitch control?

 

Try changing the prop speed in the Mustang. ;)

[[DBS]TH0R]

As I have said in another thread. Please, can somone show me a track where one of you fly a good loop and a cuban 8!?

Till today the k-4 is the only plane I can't manage this as I can with all other planes. This bird flips and rolls without no reason much more as any other prop plane in this game, even at higher speeds. But it shouldn't or for what were the front flaps again? For a more unstable flight behavior at low and high speeds? :huh:

For me the K-4 is not any near of what the LW ace told us!

 

Here is some watching material for you Nedum:

 

https://youtu.be/IbeRn1rgoIo?t=8m57s

 

- note the challenging aircraft to fly ("tricky handling qualities")

- note the precision required to do maneuvers

- note the lack of directional stability, i.e. coordinating rudder in all maneuvers

 

 

As for the comment about the aces flying it, if you fly a plane for hundreds of hours you will develop muscle memory and probably forget about the things that made it tricky for the pilots that first tried flying it. It becomes second nature. The same is true for DCS 109. After you get some stick time with it, it too becomes second nature and one can even do wheel landings in her, no problem.

[BIGNEWY]

Please do not make this discussion personal, keep it on topic and respectful. Thanks

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Yes, and thanks to ED, we get to enjoy those very things with the 109, I agree with you, its great.

You need to know something about painting, and the author techniques for copying a Velazquez ( any other art work) , if you want to make a picture that looks like the original.

 

You stated that ZERO mark, mean nothing, but it is false. In whatever oscilating control the ZERO mark is THE CENTER REFERENCE . Try it with audio balance control in your Stereo at home.

 

My friend, Elevator Trim ZERO mark is NEUTRAL, from firts airplanes with trim control to present day.

 

Also thanks for posting that wind tunnel picture, you are right, looks like its a little nose up there too... very good points Otto, thanks for finally coming around!!

Can you look the wind force actuating in the tail too??

[Ala13_ManOWar]

My friend, Elevator Trim ZERO mark is NEUTRAL, from firts airplanes with trim control to present day.

Finally you got it, zero means neutral!!!! And all aircraft in the World take off using neutral trim like your friend Supongo also agrees, K4 handbook states 0 trim to take off :thumbup:. Thanks mate for your acknowledging effort.

 

S!

[Crumpp]

Here is some watching material for you Nedum:

 

https://youtu.be/IbeRn1rgoIo?t=8m57s

 

- note the challenging aircraft to fly ("tricky handling qualities")

- note the precision required to do maneuvers

- note the lack of directional stability, i.e. coordinating rudder in all maneuvers

 

 

As for the comment about the aces flying it, if you fly a plane for hundreds of hours you will develop muscle memory and probably forget about the things that made it tricky for the pilots that first tried flying it. It becomes second nature. The same is true for DCS 109. After you get some stick time with it, it too becomes second nature and one can even do wheel landings in her, no problem.

 

Exactly.

 

From what I know, the Bf-109 is a pilot's airplane.

[Nedum]

Here is some watching material for you Nedum:

 

https://youtu.be/IbeRn1rgoIo?t=8m57s

 

- note the challenging aircraft to fly ("tricky handling qualities")

- note the precision required to do maneuvers

- note the lack of directional stability, i.e. coordinating rudder in all maneuvers

 

 

As for the comment about the aces flying it, if you fly a plane for hundreds of hours you will develop muscle memory and probably forget about the things that made it tricky for the pilots that first tried flying it. It becomes second nature. The same is true for DCS 109. After you get some stick time with it, it too becomes second nature and one can even do wheel landings in her, no problem.

 

Sorry but even this vid (I know this one) do not show any of the behaviors we have in game.

I would really like to see a track of one of you doing a loop and a cuban 8.

Compared to all other prop planes we have in DCS the K-4 is the one with the most strange and complicated flight behavior even if I try to do a simple loop I have to fight her all the time like in a cage fight.

So if most of you think this is all ok... please show me how to do it the right way.... :helpsmilie:

[Crumpp]

Check your controls. I think there might be a spiking issue in DCS 1.5. I got some un-commanded control movements as well. Re-calibrate your controls...it helped me.

[NineLine]

 

My friend, Elevator Trim ZERO mark is NEUTRAL, from firts airplanes with trim control to present day.

 

Yes, as we have been saying, over and over and over and over and over.... zero is neutral, not level flight magical setting or anything else, but neutral... glad you finally got it, enjoy the sim now!

[[DBS]TH0R]

Sorry but even this vid (I know this one) do not show any of the behaviors we have in game.

I would really like to see a track of one of you doing a loop and a cuban 8.

Compared to all other prop planes we have in DCS the K-4 is the one with the most strange and complicated flight behavior even if I try to do a simple loop I have to fight her all the time like in a cage fight.

So if most of you think this is all ok... please show me how to do it the right way.... :helpsmilie:

 

Additional reading for you Nedum:

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/airframes/black6/bk6_flight.htm

 

There are two problem areas in yaw control with the '109. Firstly, directional stability is low and marked slip ball excursions occur with any changes of speed or power. Also, there is moderate adverse aileron yaw (right yaw when left aileron is applied, and vice versa). The rudder force to centralise the slip ball is low, but constant rudder inputs are required during manoeuvres to minimise sideslip. If the slip ball is not kept central, the lateral force on the pilot is not uncomfortable and no handling problems occur, but it looks very untidy in a display. At the top of a left wing-over, you are very cross-controlled, with left aileron and lots of right rudder applied. This lack of directional stability makes it hard work to fly the aircraft accurately and neatly, although there are no safety problems. However, it must have made accurate tracking for a guns 'kill' very difficult. I suspect that many '109 kills were made at very close range! It also says a great deal about the shooting skills of the Luftwaffe Aces. The second problem is the lack of a cockpit adjustable rudder trimmer. The fixed tab is set so that the rudder is in trim during the cruise, reducing footloads during long transits. However, for all other airspeed and power combinations, a rudder force must be applied. This is an annoying feature, and I am surprised that a rudder trim tab was never fitted to later models such as the Gustav.

 

 

EDIT: Apologies for posting the same link in two threads, but the reply is on the two different topics.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

There are two problem areas in yaw control with the '109. Firstly, directional stability is low and marked slip ball excursions occur with any changes of speed or power. Also, there is moderate adverse aileron yaw (right yaw when left aileron is applied, and vice versa). The rudder force to centralise the slip ball is low, but constant rudder inputs are required during manoeuvres to minimise sideslip. If the slip ball is not kept central, the lateral force on the pilot is not uncomfortable and no handling problems occur, but it looks very untidy in a display. At the top of a left wing-over, you are very cross-controlled, with left aileron and lots of right rudder applied. This lack of directional stability makes it hard work to fly the aircraft accurately and neatly, although there are no safety problems. However, it must have made accurate tracking for a guns 'kill' very difficult. I suspect that many '109 kills were made at very close range! It also says a great deal about the shooting skills of the Luftwaffe Aces. The second problem is the lack of a cockpit adjustable rudder trimmer. The fixed tab is set so that the rudder is in trim during the cruise, reducing footloads during long transits. However, for all other airspeed and power combinations, a rudder force must be applied. This is an annoying feature, and I am surprised that a rudder trim tab was never fitted to later models such as the Gustav.

Great explain mate. And matches every single point the actual module :thumbup:.

 

S!

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Additional reading for you Nedum:

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/airframes/black6/bk6_flight.htm

 

....I am surprised that a rudder trim tab was never fitted to later models such as the Gustav.

 

EDIT: Apologies for posting the same link in two threads, but the reply is on the two different topics.

 

Who says that nonsense? ..All models of BF-109 had rudder trim tabs, even the tall tail models equipped with Flettner tabs. :huh:

[bongodriver]

Who says that nonsense? ..All models of BF-109 had rudder trim tabs, even the tall tail models equipped with Flettner tabs. :huh:

 

Not cockpit adjustable ones.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Who says that nonsense? ..All models of BF-109 had rudder trim tabs, even the tall tail models equipped with Flettner tabs. :huh:

Obviously he means a pilot adjustable in cockpit rudder trim... :music_whistling:

 

S!

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Yes, as we have been saying, over and over and over and over and over.... zero is neutral, not level flight magical setting or anything else, but neutral... glad you finally got it, enjoy the sim now!

 

It is a joke? :huh:, ..NEUTRAL is not tail heavy, like we have now in DCS:BF-109K4 ver 1.5, ... NEUTRAL trim mean, level flight, and Bf-109 elevator trim was setting for level flight at cruise power. Not for crazy looping hands off.:D