M2000 vs Mig-21

[Hook47]

Whilst the Mirage will beat the F-15 both in terms of STR and ITR, I don't think it will beat the Su-27 in these areas.

 

 

 

What loadings for the MiG-21?

 

For a fully fueled Mirage 2000C with 2x 550's and 250 rnds of 30mm ammunition the T/W ratio at full afterburner is 0.91 and climb rate is over 55,000 ft/min.

 

At combat weight, which is 50% fuel, the T/W ratio goes up to 1.05.

 

Agreed on the flanker. It is a real beast in visual range, which it why I have been flying it so much lately online! Although I should think the M2000 may have a ITR advantage I don't think it will be able to capatalize on it.

 

Interesting. The loading for the MiG 21 with that data is stated as "optimal" which I assume would be similar. Where did you find .91 to 1.05? The only couple places I've found have ranged from .79-.88 but I am not saying that is reliable. Is there an English manual floating around for this bird?

Edited December 10, 2015 by Hook47

[Hummingbird]

Agreed on the flanker. It is a real beast in visual range, which it why I have been flying it so much lately online! Although I should think the M2000 may have a ITR advantage I don't think it will be able to capatalize on it.

 

I think the M2000 will only have an ITR advantage if the Flanker pilot keeps on his stability system.

 

Interesting. The loading for the MiG 21 with that data is stated as "optimal" which I assume would be similar. Where did you find .91 to 1.05? The only couple places I've found have ranged from .79-.88 but I am not saying that is reliable. Is there an English manual floating around for this bird?

 

It's on the performance charts:

 

 

[Hook47]

Well the tests results are in- Here is how my first M-2000C run in went :)

 

The flaming wreckage in the background was my opponent.

 

He ran out of Magic IIs. I still had two R-60s :)

 

Like I said, warfare is dynamic, never write off the ol Mig 21

 

http://s15.postimg.org/fln6rgjl7/Mig_Vs_Mirage.jpg' alt='Mig_Vs_Mirage.jpg'>

free pic[/img]

 

Gotta love the MiG 21 Vs Mirage Server!!!!

Edited December 30, 2015 by Hook47

[ttaylor0024]

Well the tests results are in- Here is how my first M-2000C run in went :)

 

The flaming wreckage in the background was my opponent.

 

He ran out of Magic IIs. I still had two R-60s :)

 

Like I said, warfare is dynamic, never write off the ol Mig 21

 

http://s15.postimg.org/fln6rgjl7/Mig_Vs_Mirage.jpg' alt='Mig_Vs_Mirage.jpg'>

free pic[/img]

 

Gotta love the MiG 21 Vs Mirage Server!!!!

 

Eh, I was 7-0. Every time I ran out of missiles I'd just stay for guns. One burst is all I ever need.

 

I do agree though, I love that server

[Rlaxoxo]

Just see yourself:

 

Amazing ... that FBW rolls feels exactly the same in DCS almost everything looks and feels the same

[Hummingbird]

Remember the Mirage 2000C model atm is nothing like the real thing, esp. in terms of sustained maneuvering where it suffers badly in comparison to what it's supposed to. Can only just hold 7 G at 1090 km/h atm, where'as it should be able to hold 9 G at an even lower speed.

 

Basically it's flying like a MiG-21 atm :P

 

So better hold back from making any conclusions until the M2000 gets its flight model sorted ;)

[il_corleone]

Mig 21 is has 1/3 chances of taking down a Mirage

[Hook47]

Mig 21 is has 1/3 chances of taking down a Mirage

 

Funny, pre release it had no chance ;)

 

Also Hummingbird STR wouldn't have helped him. He lost all his energy turning with me, and I had more missiles left than he did. I won three more engagements after this and my final one for the day was a draw, we got eachother

[Hummingbird]

Funny, pre release it had no chance ;)

 

Also Hummingbird STR wouldn't have helped him. He lost all his energy turning with me, and I had more missiles left than he did. I won three more engagements after this and my final one for the day was a draw, we got eachother

 

You said yourself he lost all his energy turning with you, to which my only answer is: Of course he did, cause atm that's what the M2000 does :D

 

Anyway I never said that the MiG-21 didn't stand a chance regardless of who's flying, I always said with equal pilots ;)

 

When the M2000 is fixed it'll be like fighting F-15's with sparrows and some extra agility.

[GGTharos]

Yep the benchmark is flying against your own clone. The pilot is a meaningless part of the equation when comparing aircraft, until you get into things that affect human factors.

[Darkwolf]

Mirage weapons may be failed, but damage model is too. Many mirage i hit with R3-R did not had any issue. We had a 2v2 in our squadron. We surprised the mirage and banged them simultanously. Both turned into fight, undamaged. One of them actually did not even noticed he was hit :P had the same online too.

[Pilotasso]

Remember the Mirage 2000C model atm is nothing like the real thing, esp. in terms of sustained maneuvering where it suffers badly in comparison to what it's supposed to. Can only just hold 7 G at 1090 km/h atm, where'as it should be able to hold 9 G at an even lower speed.

 

Basically it's flying like a MiG-21 atm :P

 

So better hold back from making any conclusions until the M2000 gets its flight model sorted ;)

 

That's still better than the Mig21 (in theory), as the migs corner speed can only be attained well under 300nm/h. If you make it a fast dogfight your guaranteed to outturn the mig every time. It's an older generation plane.

[GGTharos]

Mirage weapons may be failed, but damage model is too. Many mirage i hit with R3-R did not had any issue. We had a 2v2 in our squadron. We surprised the mirage and banged them simultanously. Both turned into fight, undamaged. One of them actually did not even noticed he was hit :P had the same online too.

 

You should have never been able to get them to track an m2k so it's all par for the course ;-)

[Darkwolf]

Fair enough, they seems unable to track mig either :P

[iLOVEwindmills]

You should have never been able to get them to track an m2k so it's all par for the course ;-)

 

Why's that?

[GGTharos]

Because in theory, and AFAIK, that missile uses a con scan seeker, possibly without any Doppler filtering either... So at the first sign of modern ECM it would probably just break track.

 

The mig-21's radar would likely not fare any better so you wouldn't even get as far as launching the missile.

 

The difference in technology is just too wide.

 

Then again if someone forgot to turn their ECM system on, they're fair game... But chaff ought to be pretty effective.

 

AFAIK in most RL combat encounters with modern fighter MIG-21s just never stood a chance - to the point where the modern fighters would just fly right up and shoot them in the face almost at rmin.

[mattebubben]

remember guys the M2000 is missing alot of features.

 

Amongst them is the Auto lock in close combat.

 

Aswell and more importantly the abillity to slew the Magic II seekers to the Radar.

 

Wich means you dont have to point the missile at the enemy before you fire like you do in the Mig-21.

[iLOVEwindmills]

I was getting broken locks on M2000s earlier, but I'm not sure if that was due to server being wonky or anything with its ECM. I'm not used to it happening against 15C and 27s though.

 

Btw, does the 2000s more powerful ECM setting have any increased effect over the regular setting currently?

[GGTharos]

It isn't more powerful, it's just allowed to take precedence over radar operation. I suppose the result might be as if it was more powerful (basically it gets more emission time)

 

But it wouldn't have any effect on game AFAIK, not against other aircraft. The ECM model in game is very simple.

[Hook47]

Because in theory, and AFAIK, that missile uses a con scan seeker, possibly without any Doppler filtering either... So at the first sign of modern ECM it would probably just break track.

 

The mig-21's radar would likely not fare any better so you wouldn't even get as far as launching the missile.

 

The difference in technology is just too wide.

 

Then again if someone forgot to turn their ECM system on, they're fair game... But chaff ought to be pretty effective.

 

AFAIK in most RL combat encounters with modern fighter MIG-21s just never stood a chance - to the point where the modern fighters would just fly right up and shoot them in the face almost at rmin.

 

Not sure I have ever heard of many RL encounters where modern fighters just "fly right up and shoot them in the face a rmin"

 

But anyway....

 

He didn't have ECM on when I've hit with an R3R, and there was a lot of "in theory" "Possibly" "Probably" and "AFAIK" up there for ED to go making it a solid rule that my R3s are totally useless, my friend :) For this, I am glad ED won't make missiles changes unless hard data is presented. A good policy since probably about 90 percent of what people think missiles would and wouldn't do on this forum is complete guesstimation, as almost none of it has ever happened.

 

ECM I'm sure is a touchy and classified subject, so it is reasonable that the ECM model is a little simple, although I think we will see upgrades down the road.

 

Yes the Radar slew will help the M-2000C, but only twice... Because after that it is out of missiles! I enjoyed relighting the discussion, and of course the M-2000 is a much better interceptor and a better dog fighter than the MiG 21 (but with a couple major limitations), but the 21 has just enough spunk left in it to give it a decent shot in the right hands, as I am finding on the wonderful Mig vs Mirage server.

 

Let's ALSO keep in mind the Mirage has some unfair advantages too, along with its incomplete features, that will hopefully soon be patched. For instance, a M-2000 which had just taken off and was heavier than me (I had 50 percent fuel and 2 missiles) after a brief tangle, was able to turn and out climb me EASILY like a rocket ship, even though I activated Emergency After Burner. This out not to be, as the MiG 21, particularly a light one vs a full M-2000, should easily be able to climb with or outclimb a M-2000 in EAB, due to the significant TWW advantage in this mode.

 

It's a two way street, and the M-2000C is the better bird, but the MiG, as predicted, can play on its disadvantages.

 

One thing that is interesting, although I did get a little flamed for it prior to release, is that I am finding many of my predictions of MiG 21 vs Mirage combat are coming true. Primarily, the additional ordinance helps a lot as well as the higher amount of CM. I do think even the current M-2000 is able to turn better than the MiG 21, but not so much that I find myself helpless. Finally, I think that the M-2000C (With it's current limitations, both temporary and permanent) and MiG 21 are probably the best rivals for one another in the sim right now, as I find myself feeling like I am in a fancier MiG 21 when I confront the air superiority in the Mirage. Better performance on the 530D will help, but only just slightly. I guess it goes back to what I said about how beating an F-15C in a MiG, or getting beat, proves absolutely nothing about the MiG vs the M2000, because the F-15C seems to be a significantly more capable aircraft than the M2000C

 

I guess the biggest question for me is why the heck did the French make such a BA fighter, and then only hang 4 missiles on it???!!! It can hold a dozen bombs for god's sake! :D If this thing had more teeth, I'd be in much more trouble in the MiG! I think I will start a thread regarding that, I am very curious to hear the possible reasons.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Hook47

[TomCatMucDe]

Fighting against a Mirage noob, and we all are, is not a proof to me.

The extra middles of the MiG are rather disadvantages. If you don't plan on playing ambush, loading 8 missiles on the MIG is a bad idea.

There is one huge feature of the mirage which can be a game changer is to slave your magic to the automatic radar lock in close combat mode. Today a lot of pilots including me in the fight against Darkwolf yesterday did this mistake and shot with radar lock but not the magic lock. I believe many are making this mistake online.

Finally, the Mirage is not yet capable of look down shoot down as the mechanical vertical orientation is still not fully functional.

 

A gods tactic against a MiG that should always work if you have a decent pilot is to shoot one 530, get him in defensive and never let him turn to you again. You can finish him with magic or guns. I don't see any winning tactic for MIG to outperform this other than sneaking and ambush

[Hook47]

Fighting against a Mirage noob, and we all are, is not a proof to me.

The extra middles of the MiG are rather disadvantages. If you don't plan on playing ambush, loading 8 missiles on the MIG is a bad idea.

There is one huge feature of the mirage which can be a game changer is to slave your magic to the automatic radar lock in close combat mode. Today a lot of pilots including me in the fight against Darkwolf yesterday did this mistake and shot with radar lock but not the magic lock. I believe many are making this mistake online.

Finally, the Mirage is not yet capable of look down shoot down as the mechanical vertical orientation is still not fully functional.

 

A gods tactic against a MiG that should always work if you have a decent pilot is to shoot one 530, get him in defensive and never let him turn to you again. You can finish him with magic or guns. I don't see any winning tactic for MIG to outperform this other than sneaking and ambush

,

 

Proof of what? That the MiG 21 is better than the Mirage? I never said that. All I have ever said was the MiG 21 stood a better chance against the Mirage than any other fighter currently in the sim, and that the Mirage stood a somewhat poor chance against every fighter besides the MiG 21 and that much seems to have been correct based on my experience. This is due to limited ordinance primarily.

 

Like the pre-release discussion, your tactic sounds solid in theory, but doesn't seems to work as well in a non sterile environment, as I have been able to defeat SARH missiles on various aircraft with high/low maneuvers that allow me to keep my nose at the M-2000C, as he must do for his 530D.

 

Here is what is regularly happening:

 

Heading to merge, I have speed and altitude, so does M-2000C. He fires one or two 530Ds, I CM and evade in most cases when head on. We begin to close, within 5km of merging I cut AB to make front-aspect heater difficult and align for head on with M-2000C, most of the time M-2000C takes bait, because if he chooses not too I will end up with positional advantage in most cases. I ripple fire both R3Rs within 4, sometimes they hit, sometimes not. 70/30 chance of getting better position on M-2000C in first pass depending on skill of pilot. I have a good amount of CM so as soon as he gets a Magic II off I evade one or both if possible, and I return in kind, except I have 4 R-60Ms. So far I have won or had a draw in all encounters, draw meaning we damage eachother or break contact (Mirages tend to run fairly often, I am assuming because they are Winchester). I am sure I'll get splashed at some point as the M-2000C has advantages, but I have a few hours in so far and haven't gone down yet.

 

Slaving the Magic II will be nice. Game changer? I do not know, because to my knowledge the Magic II will still have to be within seeker head parameters (I do not think it is high off boresight, right?) so yea it makes things faster, but once again you only got two and even with a slaved lock that missile is on it's own after it comes off the rail, so if there isn't a good IR signature it is done.

 

I almost ALWAYS plan on "playing ambush" in the MiG 21, therefore bringing 8 missiles is often a great idea and if you can name another effective tactic for online play I am all ears!

Edited December 31, 2015 by Hook47

[iborg]

On the matter of ECM, I believe a simple and effective solution would be taking a page from CMANO and setting up "technological generations" of hardware.

[Hook47]

On the matter of ECM, I believe a simple and effective solution would be taking a page from CMANO and setting up "technological generations" of hardware.

 

Maybe, but I think that is painting with too broad a brush. The fact is there isn't documentation for how most of these systems would or wouldn't interact.

[Darkwolf]

I'm suspecting non mirage owner have trouble with R3R since missile will hit a su27 collision mesh. Hence mirage is now having an invisble shield. Gonna play *another simulator* until everything fixed.