I cant fly a loop or Cuban 8

[Yo-Yo]

I was wondering what you both meant by "stall turns", and I see the nicely done hammerheads in the vid :lol: :thumbup:.

 

S!

 

It's matter of terminology... :)

[Yo-Yo]

It's matter of terminology... :)

 

Possibly "stall turn" is a climb at 75-80 deg and then tail slide?

[NineLine]

Possibly "stall turn" is a climb at 75-80 deg and then tail slide?

 

Yeah, I think a stall turn has you sliding backwards some, tail sliding... Hammerhead is what you showed in the vid, going over the top like you did... least thats my understanding...

 

 

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

In terms of aerobatics stall turn and hammerhead designate exactly the same maneuver.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_turn

 

And, of course, a tail slide, or the top of a lazy eight, are each one a different maneuver and completely different, although some pilots think that at the top of their lazy eights they're performing a stall turn, when indeed they're performing ( if the maneuver was correctly executed ) what I would call a Cnbeta turn...

 

Tailslides are dangerous - I once did one in a Grob 103 Twin Acro, and I didn't want to repeat... Maybe on a Fox, but certainly not on a non purely acrobatic glider.... OTOH lazy eights are great for training basic maneuvers and coordination, and perfectly innocuous :)

 

Hammerheads / Stall Turns can go wrong sometimes... and become very frustrating... The key is finding the right speed / moment to kick the rudder, and the necessary amount of opposite aileron to use.

Edited October 15, 2015 by jcomm

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Possibly "stall turn" is a climb at 75-80 deg and then tail slide?

Well, if we talk about strict aerobatics should you don't zoom a perfect 90º straight line to the vertical it's wrong and "anything". We of course can call it a try :). But if you don't get the 90º, is it a wrong hammerhead or a wrong wing over? :smilewink:

 

 

 

S!

[Sokol1_br]

And, btw, I tried to save a track, so, when I left the session and the closing screen gave me the option to "save track" I did so, gave it a name, saved, and then immediately tried to replay, but while the aircraft did takeoff, it soon crashed ( ? )

 

The replay only went right when I left the session altogether and then used the main replay menu. Is this normal ?

 

In 1.50 this is "normal", ~90% of me saved tracks result crazy.

Even using Replay in main menu sometimes you see the track OK one time, but in the next change cameras, the track became corrupted...

[NineLine]

In 1.50 this is "normal", ~90% of me saved tracks result crazy.

Even using Replay in main menu sometimes you see the track OK one time, but in the next change cameras, the track became corrupted...

 

Yeah, unfortunately tracks are FUBAR right now.

[Nedum]

I would only really like to see a track in which the BF109 can do such nice maneuvers as I can do with the P51 or the FW190. That's all.

Ok the part with the tracks is really bad atm but a nice vid could do it also.

I myself doubt that there is one of you who can fly good loops and Cuban 8' like he can do with the FW190 or the P51.

 

Yesterday I've got another problem during a test flight for the "tree FPS dropdown behavior". Was the quick mission free flight map for the K-4.

I was in the special menu in which I can set the elevators and the ailerons basic trim.

Why is the plane rolling if I only set the basic trim for the elevators?

Is there a translation problem for the German language, because if I change the elevator (Höhenruder) trim the plane rolls left or right.

Another thing is, for no reason, at which speed I am flying, if I push the stick to a “special” negative AOA the plane trims itself out.

As soon as I have reached this special AoA I can put my hands on my knees and the k-4 is flying in a straight line till it hits the ground. Is there a special explanation for this behavior?

And if I dive with high speed (700 kph) the plane suddenly change the direction in which it will be forced to roll. Most of the time hard tendencies to roll left and then it change to roll right… but why?

Even for this behavior I can't find an explanation. The torque direction is changing but why?

The more speed I have the more air drag is “stabilizing” the plane, because of the stronger lift you need much more force to change the flight direction but it seems so if I gain more speed and more lift the plane stability becomes more weak and it will roll even harder and this although the RPM are the same and only the overall speed of the BF109 is changing. The engine power wasn’t raised or pulled down.. the same 1.2 ATA.

Is this really how a real single prop plane would act?

I've only flown some gliders and single porp planes only as a RC pilot, but even with my overpowered single prop planes I can't see such a behavior.

I'll bet that my RC porp planes will have a minimum of 2 times more ps per weight as the real ones. If I put the throttle in one second from zero to 100%, and my RC plane would behave like the BF109, it should do a 360° roll but it still flies straight with only a little shake/wip of the wings but after that the plane flies straight without a tendency to roll as soon as I change the prop power. The forces acting on the plane are enough to stabilize it over the whole flight. I only trim the planes during the test flight to counter the roll behavior. After that I only need to watch a little to counter any roll, if at all, and for me the more interesting part is the elevator. Pitch is a thing I must watch the whole flight time but roll.... no and for sure not a single roll direction change because of high speed changes.

Ok this are only small RC planes (1,6+ meters wing span) but the forces, which are acting, are the same as for the big ones. And this is a behavior I can nearly see with the P51 and the FW190 (will buy a RC FW190 during XMT :)) but the DCS BF109 seems to be a plane of another universe. A "special" dive AoA gives her a zero trim position even the speed is raising and at a special speed the torque change the direction, even the RPM are the same.

If there are explanation for such a behavior I would really like to read about it.

 

Please look at this:

 

 

and this:

 

 

This planes have all a way more power (weight thrust) as one of these WWII birds and there is no such rolling/torque effect like we have in this game

Edited October 16, 2015 by Nedum

[golani79]

Why is the plane rolling if I only set the basic trim for the elevators?

Is there a translation problem for the German language, because if I change the elevator (Höhenruder) trim the plane rolls left or right.

 

At the moment you can only adjust ailerion and rudder trim tabs - so it seems like an error in translation.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

[Sporg]

Nedum, you cannot compare with RC aircraft.

 

Just consider this: As you increase the size, area (like wing area) grows with a factor x to the second (a^2).

At the same time, the weight of everything grows with a factor x to the third (m^3).

 

So, what do you think happens to the mass/wing area factor (m^3/a^2) when you increase the aircraft to full size?

 

Not to mention the inertia of the propeller mass when you increase or reduce throttle?

 

Compare an RC propeller of a few grams, with a full blown 109 propeller of 170 kg. Not to mention internal engine parts.

Don't you think it should give a slight difference in torque? :)

 

About the dive, I think it is described elsewhere that the rudder trim "reverses" as you reach high speed, so I think that is as it should be.

(and actually a little impressive if the DCS 109 even models this. )

 

The thing about trimming itself out at negative AoA sounds strange to me.

I can trim the aircraft straight and level, if I stay within the cruise speed and throttle levels?

[NineLine]

I would only really like to see a track in which the BF109 can do such nice maneuvers as I can do with the P51 or the FW190.

 

 

Maybe post a vid or track of you not being able to do these manoeuvres and people can help you find out what you might be doing wrong...

[jester_]

I would only really like to see a track in which the BF109 can do such nice maneuvers as I can do with the P51 or the FW190. That's all.

 

Show us a video of you trying to do one. I'm almost positive you are flying outside of optimum parameters.

 

And second, why does it matter if it struggles to do a couple of aerobatic maneuvers? The plane is designed to kill other planes, and it kicks ass at that.

[ZaltysZ]

Can some of you show me (track please) how I fly with this fighter a nice looking loop or, even better, a cuban 8!?

 

If you don't mean "nice for an aerobatics competition", then maybe this would be good enough:

 

[NineLine]

At the risk of embarrassing myself, here is my Cuban 8... full disclosure... I am not an acrobatic pilot :)

 

0uyxJwgLo8Y

[Ala13_ManOWar]

At the risk of embarrassing myself, here is my Cuban 8... full disclosure... I am not an acrobatic pilot :)

If you where an aerobatic pilot I would tell you next time look for some reference, wing tip is fine while zooming. But even though you aren't it's a nice Cuban 8, I thought it couldn't be done :smilewink:.

 

S!

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

At the risk of embarrassing myself, here is my Cuban 8... full disclosure... I am not an acrobatic pilot :)

 

0uyxJwgLo8Y

 

Nicely performed!

[Hummingbird]

The excessively nervous behavior of the ingame 109 near stall, which is not realistic, is what makes this maneuver hard for newcomers, esp. if they haven't set up some good curves.

 

I use an S curve of 18 in pitch for the 109 ingame and I don't have a problem carrying out a cuban 8, but I don't have a problem doing one in any aircraft so...

 

The problem with the 109 atm is the wing rocking and rapid stall near CLmax, and that needs fixing. Hope it happens soon so that it will feel as forgiving & agile as the real aircraft does in this regime, i.e. during slow to medium speed heavy maneuvering.

[NineLine]

The excessively nervous behavior of the ingame 109 near stall, which is not realistic, is what makes this maneuver hard for newcomers, esp. if they haven't set up some good curves.

 

I use an S curve of 18 in pitch for the 109 ingame and I don't have a problem carrying out a cuban 8, but I don't have a problem doing one in any aircraft so...

 

The problem with the 109 atm is the wing rocking and rapid stall near CLmax, and that needs fixing. Hope it happens soon so that it will feel as forgiving & agile as the real aircraft does in this regime, i.e. during slow to medium speed heavy maneuvering.

 

I dont use any curves.

[NineLine]

If you where an aerobatic pilot I would tell you next time look for some reference, wing tip is fine while zooming. But even though you aren't it's a nice Cuban 8, I thought it couldn't be done :smilewink:.

 

S!

 

Yeah, I need to better watch what my aircraft is doing for sure, I didnt stay lined up with the runway very well, but was fun to attempt anyways :)

[Hummingbird]

I dont use any curves.

 

That might be why your wings rock that much from side to side during the loop as it's hard to maintain fine control without any curves. I have the exact same problem when not using curves.

[NineLine]

Thats purely me not paying attention to where I am, thats about my third attempt and I got smoother as I went along, as I said, I am not much for the acrobatic stuff, and trying to worry about where start a maneuver and trying to finish in the same place... purely my skill level, or lack there of ;)

 

I am sure I could smooth it out if I worked on it...

[Hummingbird]

Well sure a lot of practice with any aircraft will eventually make curves for that particular aircraft unnecessary, but using curves does make things much easier since you can then level out the differences in input response ranges between aircraft. i.e.*that much stick deflection gives you that many deg/sec rotation* etc... and then tailor every aircraft to roughly that certain prefered input response range.

 

For example I remember overcorrecting A LOT in roll when first flying the F-15 because it rolls so incredibly fast (and the same with the F-86), so I simply used curves to turn down the input responses to levels I am more used to from other aircraft :)

[NineLine]

Oh I am not saying curves have no place, I have just never been a fan, they seem mostly for, as you said, deficiencies in our controllers or our skill with a certain module... I prefer to just get there there without them, one less thing I have to worry about if I need to set up a clean install or what have you :) I know a lot of the acrobatic guys use curves, but I think they arent quite as important to combat flying, but its all about preference for sure... either way, the cuban 8 or a loop for that matter seems pretty easy in this aircraft, making sure you manage your energy and such...

[Hummingbird]

I don't have problems with it either, but as I mentioned neither have I with any aircraft ingame yet :) As you rightly point out, its all about managing your energy and knowing what speeds and altitudes are needed.