1.5.1.46722.87 Model Visibility removal

[SharpeXB]

Guys can I direct you back to this post.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2558667&postcount=163

Sharepe, you already use an enlargement system that is broken dude ... and it gives you massive benefits compared to low resolution users and VR users. Of course you would defend it and want to keep it unchanged.

I can only explain why that feature is included in every other flight sim game and DCS so many times.

 

But you seem to have a certain lack of experience with games and flight sims if you can't comprehend that a monitor is smaller than the real world and understand concepts like what an FOV is.

 

Perhaps you need more experience with these games before writing so much and wanting to change them. Believe me nobody with ED is considering your suggestion regarding this.

 

So after using this feature after the update, the model scaling is too big on ground targets. It didn't seem to me that the air targets were as bad as the ground targets. I had it on small and it definitely was too big. I'm going to try and see what happens when I try the other setting but I'm sure it'll only get bigger. So this needs to be tweaked to make the feature work the way ED intended. Still like this feature, just need to change the values, maybe split the difference with the first values and these. The way the ground targets looked on small should be what they look like on max enlargement. Just my thought.

 

The feature is working now just as ED intended. The first version was too small to help. So now it's more pronounced. The smaller more subtle version was already tried and the feedback was that it didn't help most people. The Enlarged Model setting is now akin to an icon or label which is just fine. If you don't like how it looks you can always switch it off. Servers will certainly be able to switch it off as well.

 

The danger is that overly masochistic server admins would completely remove all enlargement options

Realism is masochistic :smilewink:

It's fine that many players need help with visibility but there is a large segment of players who want the gameplay kept realistically difficult in this regard. So a setting like this must be server controlled. And the current state of this feature is actually better compared to the previous version since it's a clear distinction. There's no "realistic" way to implement scaling so it might as well be more pronounced and moved into the same category as labels.

Edited November 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

[JawsMa]

Hey that's great.

So without delving into all the math, just the summary. An average pilot would see a target the size of a DC-3 at about five miles. If they didn't know it was there before.

A spotter deliberately looking who knows its location could pick it up at as far away as 12 miles.

See even in DCS 1.2 that's about what we have. Even on a 1080p screen, if I know the location of a bandit from radar, I can visually acquire them at that 10 mile range easy, and a fighter aircraft size as well. But spontaneously seeing another aircraft usually won't happen till around 5 miles. So what's done in DCS 1.2 isn't that far off. And it's not a matter of size, contrast plays the biggest role.

 

I´m not taking sides in any way.

 

Just want to point out that those numbers are from aircrafts at a collisioncourse, nose to nose at 0,30,45,90 degree aspect.

 

Take care guys!

 

/Jaws

[Ewertsp]

We shouldn't be able to id anything at long range, and that is happening now as we can see the shape of the model from far away. Idk if it's just me but it seems that the model shrinks a little when you zoom in, so it's easier to see without zooming so much. And estimating range by eye is not good too at first but I got the hang of it.

 

IMO, the system should go back to the scalling dots or a block of dots at long range, like 5-10km or 7-15km, being 10-15km max spotting range, and the new scalling system working at 0-5/7km. Maybe ED could add this kind of setting in options then we test and post the results so we can reach a common ground or a range of acceptable settings.

[AMEDooley]

 

The feature is working now just as ED intended. The first version was too small to help. So now it's more pronounced. The smaller more subtle version was already tried and the feedback was that it didn't help most people. The Enlarged Model setting is now akin to an icon or label which is just fine. If you don't like how it looks you can always switch it off. Servers will certainly be able to switch it off as well.

 

First off, you don't get to comment on a feature of a game that you don't play. Second, you have no clue how ED intended this feature to be like, as you are not an employee of ED. You sound absolutely silly. If you want to comment on this feature, be an open beta play tester. If you don't want to use the open beta, that's fine you don't have to. But you don't get to comment on how awful a feature is and that it should be removed if you refuse to play the open beta.

 

Now I thought it worked well in the last version. I'm okay with them fiddling around with the settings to get this feature right. It's definitely a WIP. But again it's a beta so this is to be expected. The value on small I think would be okay if that was the max setting. I wonder if they could split the distance on the values and see what that does.

[SharpeXB]

you have no clue how ED intended this feature to be like

I dunno. If they put the feature in the game then yeah they intended it to work the way it does. Unless you're suggesting that it happened by accident or that they don't internally test anything. I'd say my assumption is logical and I don't have to install the beta to make logical assumptions

 

We shouldn't be able to id anything at long range, and that is happening now as we can see the shape of the model from far away. Idk if it's just me but it seems that the model shrinks a little when you zoom in, so it's easier to see without zooming so much. And estimating range by eye is not good too at first but I got the hang of it.

 

IMO, the system should go back to the scalling dots or a block of dots at long range, like 5-10km or 7-15km, being 10-15km max spotting range, and the new scalling system working at 0-5/7km. Maybe ED could add this kind of setting in options then we test and post the results so we can reach a common ground or a range of acceptable settings.

I get the direction this is headed and it's fine now.

There's no way to get players to agree on what a "realistic" level of scaling would be, there's too great a range of hardware and experience levels. It's like trying to agree what color icons should be or something. You can't make it "real" so just make it a game aid and be done with it. And make it server controlled. One persons definition of "relastic" is just going to leave others with the same old problem. So if it's going to be a "game aid" then make it a real aid, big and pronounced. For full realism, switch it off.

Edited November 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

[msalama]

then yeah they intended it to work the way it does

 

Could also be it's a placeholder implementation for something better in the future. Those are pretty common in beta SW.

[SharpeXB]

Could also be it's a placeholder implementation for something better in the future. Those are pretty common in beta SW.

Yeah they could always just get rid of it too. Be careful what you complain about.

[dburne]

I dunno. If they put the feature in the game then yeah they intended it to work the way it does. Unless you're suggesting that it happened by accident or that they don't internally test anything. I'd say my assumption is logical and I don't have to install the beta to make logical assumptions

 

It would appear to me, you are making very illogical assumptions especially considering the fact you have not even played 1.5, merely looked at a screenshot or two.

:doh:

 

My gosh, it is a beta. It is a new feature, being tweaked and tested as is evidenced by previous builds. And will continue to be tweaked and tested.

Period.

[dburne]

Could also be it's a placeholder implementation for something better in the future. Those are pretty common in beta SW.

 

Yes it is obvious this new feature is in the very early stages, and will be improved upon.

[vicx]

So this needs to be tweaked to make the feature work the way ED intended. Still like this feature, just need to change the values, maybe split the difference with the first values and these.

 

Tweaking might not work easily ... I think that LODS are part of the problem. It's all explained with pictures here -> http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2558667&postcount=163 LODS are shown for a tank at 1000, 3000 and 10000m. Notice how the shape gets bigger. That's also why there is popping and invisible objects when you zoom in and out in DCS. It also causes the oversize blob for ground objects when you use the new feature at long distance.

 

I can only explain ...

 

You have given a primary school explanation of field of view ... is that meant to impress anyone? Explain to us how LODs are used in DCS. Considering how much evidential material you have posted versus how much authority you claim .... and the fact you haven't even run the Openbeta; I have to conclude that you must think that demonstrating your ignorance proudly ... will suffice.

 

It will suffice. I'm actually glad you have posted so much of your thinking in this thread.

 

The feature is working now just as ED intended. The first version was too small to help. So now it's more pronounced

 

Absolute nonsense. If you are an ED developer ... you better unmask yourself and let us in on the joke.

 

I get the direction this is headed

 

All of your posts (from my perspective) have been very helpful. I hope they are read and appreciated by future generations. :megalol:

Edited November 20, 2015 by vicx

[SharpeXB]

You have given a primary school explanation of field of view ...

And yet that simple concept has to be explained repeatedly in these games. It's as if some people have no grasp of reality. :doh:

[msalama]

Be careful what you complain about.

Me? Hey, this ain't my brawl. I'm a groundpounder first and foremost, and the ground units are actually just a tad more visible au naturel in v1.5 anyway. So I'm doing just fine without any enhancements at all, thank you ;)

[dburne]

And yet that simple concept has to be explained repeatedly in these games. It's as if some people have no grasp of reality.

 

Actually no it doesn't, you apparently seem to think it does in your world.

I am pretty sure most DCS players have a pretty good grasp of this.

[SharpeXB]

It would appear to me, you are making very illogical assumptions especially considering the fact you have not even played 1.5, merely looked at a screenshot or two.

So it's more logical to assume that ED doesn't even evaluate this stuff themselves before putting it out in the Beta? They know for themselves exactly what the feature does. That's certain.

What's not certain is whether or not this remains. But this direction was taken for a reason and I'm actually ok with it as it is now.

 

And actually, yes I'm more interested in other people's screenshots than my own. It's more important how this plays in 1080p than any other resolution.

[AMEDooley]

It would appear to me, you are making very illogical assumptions especially considering the fact you have not even played 1.5, merely looked at a screenshot or two.

:doh:

 

My gosh, it is a beta. It is a new feature, being tweaked and tested as is evidenced by previous builds. And will continue to be tweaked and tested.

Period.

 

Thank you, that was my point exactly. It's going to be tweaked to get it the way they intended it to be. You my friend are awesome!

[SharpeXB]

Actually no it doesn't, you apparently seem to think it does in your world.

This applies to everyone's world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)

 

Maybe some people think the little cockpit image they see on their screen is life sized? :music_whistling:

Edited November 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

This applies to everyone's world.

 

Maybe some people think the little cockpit image they see on their screen is life sized?

 

Sorry, I am not going to click on your Wikipedia links .

 

But you keep on using that realistic full zoom ok?

:megalol:

[SharpeXB]

Sorry, I am not going to click on your Wikipedia links .

 

But you keep on using that realistic full zoom ok?

:megalol:

The concept is "Perspective". Maybe you aren't acquainted with the idea but it means that objects which are farther away from you are drawn and/or appear smaller than those which are closer. It's a quite universally understood idea since .. oh say the 15th century...

 

To explain the concept relative to this game. Answer the following question:

Does a player who is looking at the "zoomed out" view of their cockpit on a 23" screen which is 2' away from their face, see a life-sized image?

Do you think the screen image that player sees is as large as what the real pilot in this photo sees?

 

Yes or No?

Edited November 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

The concept is "Perspective". Maybe you aren't acquainted with the idea but it means that objects which are farther away from you are drawn and/or appear smaller than those which are closer. It's a quite universally understood idea since .. oh say the 15th century...

 

I think the above statement says it all at this point.

Edited November 20, 2015 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

To further explain why flight sims have a "zoom" view command, see the following:

In the first picture (A-10 Cockpit), that red rectangle represents the size of a typical monitor in front of the player/pilot. If the game provided the player a "realistic" field of view (FOV), at a life-sized scale, that's what their screen would look like.

The second picture (DCS A-10 Screen) is cropped to make this even more clear. That's how far zoomed-in your view would need to be if you wanted to see everything in the game at it's real size. Now we can all agree that's not really practical most of the time, most of the time you're using a wider FOV as shown in picture 3 (Wide FOV) to give yourself some peripheral vision and awareness, at the expense of shrinking everything on your screen. So zoomed-in is actually closer to life sized scale than zoomed out. Of course if your cockpit appears too small, so does everything else in the game like distant aircraft. That's one factor which makes distant objects and aircraft harder to see in the game.

So in order to play the game effectively, the player needs to constantly vary their zoom level or FOV in and out. Without that ability you'd be stuck at a narrow FOV without any peripheral vision or out at a wide angle where everything appears too small.

 

And that only explains the size of what you see, not the question of resolution. From these pictures you can imagine how large a screen you'd need to make everything life sized (maybe a 50"-60" HDTV) and perhaps alleviate the need for the zoom command. But even a 4K screen at that size is not nearly as sharp as your real eyesight, so another thing the zoom compensates for is acuity or how sharp your vision in the real world is compared to the game.

 

Hope that finally explains the issue.

Edited November 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

[IvanTehFennec]

-stuff about how it compensates for pixel limitations-

 

So what exactly do you think the model visibility does? It compensates for how aircraft at distance are at the sub-pixel level without zoom, or even with it. You can turn it off on your end if it bothers you that much.

[SharpeXB]

So what exactly do you think the model visibility does? It compensates for how aircraft at distance are at the sub-pixel level without zoom, or even with it. You can turn it off on your end if it bothers you that much.

I can turn it off. So should servers be able to. If that's the case I won't particularly care what the feature does.

 

The Enlarged Model setting though is different than just adjusting your FOV since it represents objects out of scale. The Zoom View keeps all the objects at their correct relative size. So the Zoom View is more realistic in how it looks on the screen. There's really no way Enlarged Models can look realistic or be allowed on a server which intends to provide realistic gameplay. So the difference is that the Zoom View can be used "full real" but Enlarged Model cannot.

 

The other difference between these features is that Zoom View is used universally by flight sims whereas Model Enlargement is only found in an experimental state in this DCS beta. Zoom View is the standard method used to address this issue in games.

Edited November 21, 2015 by SharpeXB

[AMEDooley]

I can turn it off. So should servers be able to. If that's the case I won't particularly care what the feature does.

 

The Enlarged Model setting though is different than just adjusting your FOV since it represents objects out of scale. The Zoom View keeps all the objects at their correct relative size. So the Zoom View is more realistic in how it looks on the screen. There's really no way Enlarged Models can look realistic or be allowed on a server which intends to provide realistic gameplay. So the difference is that the Zoom View can be used "full real" but Enlarged Model cannot.

 

The other difference between these features is that Zoom View is used universally by flight sims whereas Model Enlargement is only found in an experimental state in this DCS beta. Zoom View is the standard method used to address this issue in games.

 

Oh now I get it, you're using this is how we've always done it as your argument. This isn't about immersion or an unfair competitive advantage, your just mad cause now people won't have to zoom like we've always done. Dude I'm sorry but sometimes people want to be innovative. This feature will make zooming obsolete. One less thing that I'll have to do while I'm flying. I'm so okay with it. Don't like, don't use it. I actually don't think that servers should be able to get rid of this feature, unless they get rid of zoom to. But that ain't gunna happen.

 

I, and other people on this thread, should just ignore you and your comments as you aren't even participating in the Beta. In fact that's an excellent idea.

 

(Drops the mic)

[SharpeXB]

your just mad cause now people won't have to zoom like we've always done.

The zoom view will always be a feature in DCS and every other flight sim. So no that's not my concern. And I don't have any objection to the proposed Model Enlargement feature as long as it is a made a server option.

[IvanTehFennec]

The zoom view will always be a feature in DCS and every other flight sim. So no that's not my concern. And I don't have any objection to the proposed Model Enlargement feature as long as it is a made a server option.

 

It's a choice between:

 

Having to zoom in immensely, which is horridly unrealistic, to see things at extreme distances which STILL might be too small to be represented by a pixel on smaller resolutions

 

or

 

Having scaling models at long-distances that make it just big enough to make out at extreme distances as a pixel or two when it'd otherwise be visible in real life (and non-visible on a computer screen)

 

I choose the second, for the sake of the sim.