DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[microvax]

 

 

Found two really nice pictures. Enjoy ! :)

 

[is it correct that the aim9l equivalents also work on the inner pylons ? On the loadout list on page 1 they are only listed for the most outward stations.]

[renhanxue]

I think you got the 9L and the 9J mixed up. Rb 74 (AIM-9L) can only be carried on the S7 pylons (under the fuselage) and on the V7 pylons (inner wing stations). Or, well, at an airshow you can mount whatever dummy weapons in whatever configuration you want to confuse people (I'm pretty sure this has actually happened), but they can only be fired from there.

 

The only weapon that can be carried on the R7 pylons (outermost wing pylons) is rb 24J, which is similar to (but not the same as) AIM-9J.

 

Not all possible weapon combinations implied by the image in the OP actually work in reality; the combinations that are possible to configure and are cleared for flight are listed in Speciell klargöringsinstruktion fpl AJS, AJSH, AJSF 37: vapen/spaning: klargöringsdel (or in plain English: the "preflight manual" for the ground crew). I've photographed the relevant pages (but nothing else from that manual; it's not really relevant to pilots). The bk 90 is not listed for some reason - maybe it wasn't in service yet in 1995 when this was published? Basically though, in general you're stuck with carrying one main weapon system and to that you can add Sidewinders and/or countermeasures to taste. The only exception to this seems to be that you can combine rb 05 and the autocannon pods.

 

Interestingly, a few configurations involving rb 15 mandate the drop tank, presumably for center of gravity and/or lift reasons, while if you want 16 bombs and Sidewinders you'll have to let the drop tank go, or fly it empty (presumably for MTOW reasons).

Edited July 20, 2016 by renhanxue

[RagnarDa]

Yes the options for different armament combinations are very limited. There is a rotary-switch where the ground crew selects what armament is carried and it only allows one type of air-to-ground type except for the Rb05/AKAN-combo (and possibly AGM65/AKAN, not sure). I am considering expanding the list of possible combinations but the ultimate restriction is the weapon selector in the cockpit (for example the same switch position selects the bombs in dive aiming as well as the Rb05 in anti ship configuration iirc).

[QuiGon]

Yes the options for different armament combinations are very limited. There is a rotary-switch where the ground crew selects what armament is carried and it only allows one type of air-to-ground type except for the Rb05/AKAN-combo (and possibly AGM65/AKAN, not sure). I am considering expanding the list of possible combinations but the ultimate restriction is the weapon selector in the cockpit (for example the same switch position selects the bombs in dive aiming as well as the Rb05 in anti ship configuration iirc).

 

I would prefer sticking to realistic loadouts only :)

Edited July 20, 2016 by QuiGon

[MBot]

May I suggest to add a small section to the manual with a set of voluntary "house rules" for players wanting to fly a AJ 37 (pre-AJS) configuration. Like "no RBS 15" and "Rb 24J only on inner stations" etc.

[Ce_Zeta]

Yes the options for different armament combinations are very limited. There is a rotary-switch where the ground crew selects what armament is carried and it only allows one type of air-to-ground type except for the Rb05/AKAN-combo (and possibly AGM65/AKAN, not sure). I am considering expanding the list of possible combinations but the ultimate restriction is the weapon selector in the cockpit (for example the same switch position selects the bombs in dive aiming as well as the Rb05 in anti ship configuration iirc).

I supposed that you are creating an AJS-37. Any aircraft have his strong points and his weakness. We cannot change the reality, we musn't change it.

 

Now you don't like the loadouts, maybe tomorrow you are not satisfied with the aircraft performance and in a week you started to think that can be cool if the Viggen has a twin tail, two engines...or something else.

[Schmidtfire]

I would say to put unrealistic options in "specials tab" is a better way, If they should be an option at all. Restrictions on capability is also a fun part of each module and forces players to learn new tactics to overcome them.

[amb]

I would prefer sticking to realistic loadouts only :)

 

Seconded.

[Erab]

I would say to put unrealistic options in "specials tab" is a better way, If they should be an option at all. Restrictions on capability is also a fun part of each module and forces players to learn new tactics to overcome them.

 

Something like this would be nice.

[Sporg]

Just sat in an actual Viggen at the Aeroseum in Gothenburg. Really nice cockpit and quite roomy. At least in comparison to the Draken, which was almost claustrophobic.

 

I had great fun flipping switches! :D I didn't manage to find the gear lever though. I thought it was supposed to be somewhere to the left side of the pilot.

 

Anyway, I can recommend going there if you're ever in Gothenburg.

Did you try the simulator?

Even if just FSX, it was quite fun to try.

Especially surprising was that heavy joystick compared to my WT at home. :)

(And yes, I think it is probably a JA model they use for the simulator)

 

 

 

 

Of course I hope they upgrade to DCS once the LN Viggen is out. :smilewink: :D

 

They also have an AJ or AJS one can sit in:

 

 

:)

 

I recommend very much the Aeroseum as well.

It is a quite extraordinary place. :)

http://www.aeroseum.se/index.html

Edited August 5, 2017 by Sporg
Had to remove Photobucket ads. :(

[Sporg]

I would prefer sticking to realistic loadouts only :)

 

I would say to put unrealistic options in "specials tab" is a better way, If they should be an option at all. Restrictions on capability is also a fun part of each module and forces players to learn new tactics to overcome them.

+1 one to these two.

 

Really prefer realistic options as much as possible.

That's part of the charm of DCS. :)

[RaXha]

I would prefer sticking to realistic loadouts only :)

 

 

I agree, the decision to include the AGM-65B makes sense, but other then that realistic load out options is preferred to me. :-) Having to deal with the limitations of the real aircraft is part of the fun. :-)

Edited July 20, 2016 by RaXha

[QuiGon]

I agree, the decision to include the AGM-65B makes sense, but other then that realistic load out options is preferred to me. :-)

 

Yeah, the AGM-65B is one of the rare exceptions regarding realism that I'm ok with, because of the limitations by the game.

[microvax]

I think you got the 9L and the 9J mixed up. Rb 74 (AIM-9L) can only be carried on the S7 pylons (under the fuselage) and on the V7 pylons (inner wing stations). Or, well, at an airshow you can mount whatever dummy weapons in whatever configuration you want to confuse people (I'm pretty sure this has actually happened), but they can only be fired from there.

 

The only weapon that can be carried on the R7 pylons (outermost wing pylons) is rb 24J, which is similar to (but not the same as) AIM-9J.

 

Not all possible weapon combinations implied by the image in the OP actually work in reality; the combinations that are possible to configure and are cleared for flight are listed in Speciell klargöringsinstruktion fpl AJS, AJSH, AJSF 37: vapen/spaning: klargöringsdel (or in plain English: the "preflight manual" for the ground crew). I've photographed the relevant pages (but nothing else from that manual; it's not really relevant to pilots). The bk 90 is not listed for some reason - maybe it wasn't in service yet in 1995 when this was published? Basically though, in general you're stuck with carrying one main weapon system and to that you can add Sidewinders and/or countermeasures to taste. The only exception to this seems to be that you can combine rb 05 and the autocannon pods.

 

Interestingly, a few configurations involving rb 15 mandate the drop tank, presumably for center of gravity and/or lift reasons, while if you want 16 bombs and Sidewinders you'll have to let the drop tank go, or fly it empty (presumably for MTOW reasons).

 

Oh yee got the two aim9 variants mixed up although i technically knew better. :D

That is a really interesting table, the only thing whih is a bit sad, that there is no 75/AK/24j option. [With all 6 hardpoints used.] Or not even two 75s and two AKANs. Although tbh it looks really weird to me that you can load an 24j/74 and one 75 on the s7 while loading akan on the V7. Would have thought you can at least carry two 75s on s7 and two AKAN on V7. That would have been quite good for taking out more then 2 targets without the DWS39.

Its really weird how the left S7 pylon is in some configs able or forced to take an aim9. :D

But I guess the manual doesnt lie ! ^^

 

As long as there will be an option with two DWS39 and two 75 plus two 24Js, I am completely happy. :D

 

 

Yes the options for different armament combinations are very limited. There is a rotary-switch where the ground crew selects what armament is carried and it only allows one type of air-to-ground type except for the Rb05/AKAN-combo (and possibly AGM65/AKAN, not sure). I am considering expanding the list of possible combinations but the ultimate restriction is the weapon selector in the cockpit (for example the same switch position selects the bombs in dive aiming as well as the Rb05 in anti ship configuration iirc).

 

Ahh, I see, I guess that is Vapenväljare => Waffenwähler => Weapon selector.

Inställn Klaff is probably fixed canard flap angle determined by load ?

Vapen Antal => Waffen Anzahl => Weapon count/amoun, I guess.

 

Ah uhm is that V/H switch responsible for the weird left/right asymetry I did point out before ?

Looks like if the left pylons are populated with any weapon that is communicating with system in the Aircraft [05,15,75], the switch has to be in V [Vull, voll, full I guess], while if only pylons on the right are populated it is [dunno if it has to or simply can be, could imagine it has something to do with the sequence, which weapon is fired first, if the left is fired first and there is no selector to switch to the right, you simply set it to H where it fires the right one first, because there is none on the left pylon ? just wildly speculating here.] set to H [halb => half ?].

 

Hmm, and apart from the RBS15 setups, the R7 pylons are only populated in the V setting.

Hmm since the selectors are in the same position for the 05/BK/24j setup as they are for the 75/AK/74 except the V/H selector, I would guess that rb75/AK/24j is not allowed because of aerodynamic or load limitations, not weapon system limitations. Only difference beeing V/H is probably so you can have at least one Aim9 sacrificing one AGM65.

 

Really hope we wont suffer from this with an DWS39/RB75 Combo. :DD

But whatevar I want it realistic. :)

EDIT: And I agree that RB75B is an acceptable exception due to game limitations.

EDIT2: If the Radar cursor is visible in the HUD, where it should be on the ground we prob dont even need RB75 unless attacking structures. Simply send an DWS39 there with 24MJ2 selftargeting anti tank bomblets and be like "F**K anything in that area". :DD I am mainly interested in the DWS39/RB75 setup since it would give the option to take out two high treaht targets at a bit longer range and or clear two targets, after you threw two hammers at them.

Edited July 20, 2016 by microvax

[RagnarDa]

Yes the Rb75/DWS39(="Bk90" in Sweden) is one of those combinations that could be enabled if less realistic options was added.

 

When using the Bk90/DWS39 there is no indication on the HUD where on the ground the target is, only the direction where to fly to (and when to release the munition). Other attack-modes does show where the target is on the ground (like for rockets for example). The reason they don't show it is because while using the Bk90 the velocity vector indicator/flight path marker is displayed and it's the same symbol as the target-marker (!) - a ring. The HUD in the Viggen is very different to what we are used to, especially that it uses a small number of symbols (a ring and 14 lines in different lengths) which all have different meanings in different modes. For example, the tailfin of the velocity vector indicator indicates the error in time-to-waypoint when navigating and it also indicates that the radar is used to measure distance to the ground when attacking.

[RaXha]

I am mainly interested in the DWS39/RB75 setup since it would give the option to take out two high treaht targets at a bit longer range and or clear two targets, after you threw two hammers at them.

 

 

 

The solution would be to bring a wingman with Rb75 and carry BK90 yourself. ;-)

[RaXha]

Yes the Rb75/DWS39(="Bk90" in Sweden) is one of those combinations that could be enabled if less realistic options was added.

 

When using the Bk90/DWS39 there is no indication on the HUD where on the ground the target is, only the direction where to fly to (and when to release the munition). Other attack-modes does show where the target is on the ground (like for rockets for example). The reason they don't show it is because while using the Bk90 the velocity vector indicator/flight path marker is displayed and it's the same symbol as the target-marker (!) - a ring. The HUD in the Viggen is very different to what we are used to, especially that it uses a small number of symbols (a ring and 14 lines in different lengths) which all have different meanings in different modes. For example, the tailfin of the velocity vector indicator indicates the error in time-to-waypoint when navigating and it also indicates that the radar is used to measure distance to the ground when attacking.

 

 

 

I feel like the hud will be the biggest obstacle for me to get used to after only flying American jets for so long. :P

[QuiGon]

I feel like the hud will be the biggest obstacle for me to get used to after only flying American jets for so long. :P

 

Yeah, same for me. From what I've read, the HUD doesn't seem very intuitiv to use.

[mattebubben]

Yeah, same for me. From what I've read, the HUD doesn't seem very intuitiv to use.

Well it was a very early hud.

 

So not much to base it on experience wise.

 

No real standard existed in the mid/late 60s when it was developed etc so they simply had to make it up as they went.

 

Might take some getting used to.

 

But then again the only reason later huds were better is they had experience from the early huds and knew what to improve upon.

 

The A-7D/E Corsair is an example of an Early American HUD.

 

The F-14A also has an earlier style HUD (though a few years later then the A-7s or the AJ37 HUD)

Edited July 20, 2016 by mattebubben

[Sporg]

Well it was a very early hud.

 

So not much to base it on experience wise.

 

No real standard existed in the mid/late 60s when it was developed etc so they simply had to make it up as they went.

 

Might take some getting used to.

 

But then again the only reason later huds were better is they had experience from the early huds and knew what to improve upon.

And this is part of what will really make it interesting to try.

 

There are so many "firsts" in this aircraft, and this is just one of them. :)

[QuiGon]

And this is part of what will really make it interesting to try.

 

There are so many "firsts" in this aircraft, and this is just one of them. :)

 

Indeed, it's an amazing piece of engineering and I can't wait to get in the cockpit. :joystick:

[Agremont]

Did you try the simulator?

Even if just FSX, it was quite fun to try.

Especially surprising was that heavy joystick compared to my WT at home. :)

(And yes, I think it is probably a JA model they use for the simulator)

 

No I didn't try them. Maybe next time. I will definitely go there again, even for just sitting in the cockpit flipping switches and making airplane noises. :D

 

 

Oh and regarding the discussion going on in this thread, I would like realistic loadouts only. It's a sim afterall.

[microvax]

Yes the Rb75/DWS39(="Bk90" in Sweden) is one of those combinations that could be enabled if less realistic options was added.

 

When using the Bk90/DWS39 there is no indication on the HUD where on the ground the target is, only the direction where to fly to (and when to release the munition). Other attack-modes does show where the target is on the ground (like for rockets for example). The reason they don't show it is because while using the Bk90 the velocity vector indicator/flight path marker is displayed and it's the same symbol as the target-marker (!) - a ring. The HUD in the Viggen is very different to what we are used to, especially that it uses a small number of symbols (a ring and 14 lines in different lengths) which all have different meanings in different modes. For example, the tailfin of the velocity vector indicator indicates the error in time-to-waypoint when navigating and it also indicates that the radar is used to measure distance to the ground when attacking.

 

Can you set DWS39 target only via coordinates or also via heading+range ?

Even if it feels weird to me that dual dws39 plus dual rbs15 seem to be possible, since there are at least 2 pictures I know of that config, while dual 75+dws39 are impossible, if it is that way, it should be that way in DCS. If there are things with weapon setups for the viggen, like the triple racks for the mavericks on the a10c, which are normally never used but where kept in stock for fulda gap big kaboom scenario since then nobody cared anyways, so technically possible, while not used in normal operations, I would be fine with it.

But I dont want loadouts the planes weapon systems cant possibly handle at the same time.

:)) F18 isnt that far away and since the F18 doesnt have a standoff dispenser with self targeting anti tank bomblets, that would be the perfect setup anyway. A viggen with 4 DWS39s and two 24j. Meanwhile the F18 carries two aim9s, one aim120, a targeting pod, two mavericks and two harms. :) Or obviously two Viggens, one with mavericks one with DWS39s should also work pretty damn good.

 

 

The solution would be to bring a wingman with Rb75 and carry BK90 yourself. ;-)

 

Yup ! :)

Edited July 20, 2016 by microvax

[renhanxue]

Ahh, I see, I guess that is Vapenväljare => Waffenwähler => Weapon selector.

Inställn Klaff is probably fixed canard flap angle determined by load ?

Vapen Antal => Waffen Anzahl => Weapon count/amoun, I guess.

Exactly! Speaking German is a good start if you want to learn Swedish (and vice versa). Really, though, I have a hard time thinking of a more difficult text to get started on ;)

 

Inställn is shorthand for "inställning" = setting. Klaff = flap (in aeronautical context).

 

Ah uhm is that V/H switch responsible for the weird left/right asymetry I did point out before ?

Looks like if the left pylons are populated with any weapon that is communicating with system in the Aircraft [05,15,75], the switch has to be in V [Vull, voll, full I guess], while if only pylons on the right are populated it is [dunno if it has to or simply can be, could imagine it has something to do with the sequence, which weapon is fired first, if the left is fired first and there is no selector to switch to the right, you simply set it to H where it fires the right one first, because there is none on the left pylon ? just wildly speculating here.] set to H [halb => half ?].

Not a bad guess, but not right either. The switch says "1:A VAL RB05/75, RB 15, BK". 1:a val is short for "första val" = first choice (compare English "1st"). V and H are short for vänster and höger = left and right respectively. It determines which weapon is fired first, so that's why you see it set to H in case of asymmetric loadouts with something else on the left pylon. The "default" setting is V.

 

Also, weapon options in parantheses indicate you can choose yourself if you want to fill that station or not - no extra preflight button pressing necessary.

Edited July 20, 2016 by renhanxue

[renhanxue]

Can you set DWS39 target only via coordinates or also via heading+range ?

Even if it feels weird to me that dual dws39 plus dual rbs15 seem to be possible, since there are at least 2 pictures I know of that config, while dual 75+dws39 are impossible, if it is that way, it should be that way in DCS.

I think this bit of weirdness is a result of the way they upgraded the computers and interfaces - or rather how they didn't upgrade the old interfaces. Rb 75 is one of the original weapon systems from before the upgrade and uses the old (most likely analog) interfaces made with vacuum tubes and wizardry - that is to say, it can't really "talk" to the computer. The rb 15 and bk 90 are new, post-upgrade weapons which talk to the computer using this wonder of modern technology called a serial bus - kinda like the one you might have used to plug your 14.4k modem into your computer back in the 90's (internally the computer actually uses RS232, but to talk to weapons it's the serious business NATO compatible MIL-STD-1553B). Just put them on a bus-enabled station (so any of the S7 and V7 ones) and it'll self-identify to the computer and they can figure out together on which weapon station it is and if it's working properly etc etc.

 

Combining new weapons is (and now I'm speculating) probably not an issue as far as the computer goes, you just put them there and the computer will figure out what's there and how to fire it. The problem is that the old weapon selector switch combines all the modern weapons into one choice (04/15/BK).