Viggen vs MiG-21

[chev255]

This is not the Mirage-thread. This is the Viggen-thread :smartass:

Aaaarghh... following too many topics at the same time! Thanks for the reminder :thumbup:

[emg]

And at least the MiG-21bis can carry chaff/flares without a draggy dispenser.

3- I thought actually the Mig-21 is the one that needs a pod for chaff/flare?

Yes but they're pretty slim and mounted flush on the rear fuselage. You can see the KB pod hanging on the right wing of this Draken here:

And you see it's a much draggier arrangement than the ASO-2 pods.

Edited December 15, 2015 by emg

[Simon81]

First all honor to ur Uncle .

 

But that he was confident in his aircraft does not mean they were equal.

 

First its the fact that during the cold war both sides did not fully know the capabilities of the aircraft of the other side.

 

And second its that even if they had the information they did not always give all the info to their pilots.

 

Any Airforce wants their Pilots to be confident in their aircraft and their capabilities since a pilot that goes into battle knowing he is outmatched is already beaten and might not be as agressive as somone who thinks his on even ground.

 

And also as mentioned the Attack Viggen (AJ/AJS 37 and SH/AJSH 37)

 

are far less advanced then the Fighter viggen (JA 37)

 

And while the Mig-21Bis is a danger to a AJ-37 (with the Viggen having a slight edge due to avionics and having superior manuverabillity / a more powerfull engine)

 

the JA-37 is a whole Other story.

 

The Ja-37 Is more comparable to a Mig-29 then it is a Mig-21Bis.

 

And im in no way calling youre uncle a liar im just saying that just because he was not afraid of the viggen is not because the Mig-21 was comparable it was more because Combat Pilots (good combat pilots) are trained not to be afraid of whatever enemy they come across.

 

And im Sure youre Uncle would not have been afraid to go up against a F-16 or a F-15 either since thats the way they where trained and all the honor to him and his fellow pilots.

 

But that does not mean that his airplane was comparable or that he would have had a great chance against an equally competant F-15 or F-16 pilot (Or JA-37 Pilot )

 

And also do you know during what Time period youre Uncle was active as a combat pilot? =)

 

I too know a Fighter Pilot active during the cold war (86-96) flying a JA-37 viggen out of southern sweden.

 

Who knows maby him and youre uncle faced eachother at some point ^^

 

And also did youre uncle every fly any more advanced Jet fighters then the Mig-21? Like the Mig-23, Mig-29 or F-16.

 

And if so ask him after having flown those aircraft how he would feel going up against one of those fighters in a Mig-21 and if he would still do it without hesitation or fear knowing the capabillities of the enemy aircraft and its superiority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, that both sides not fully known possibilities of the other, but that's what were these flights for, both sides did a little "test" and learn a little bit more about enemy. And that wasn't only Swedes that were flying, Poles also "visited" the Swedes and the Danes. In those days the situation was similar to today's clashes between Turks and Greeks over Aegan Sea, missing only the trigger pull ... :-)

 

In fact, my uncle had propably compared the early structures of viggens not the final version, JA-37, which came into use when the Mig-21 bis had been nearly 10 years of service behind him.

 

My uncle served since the late 70's to the early 90's, so he met on the Baltic Sea rather older versions of mighty Viggens.

 

As a curiosity about the simulated dogfights, I can add that after the fall of communism several Western air units flew to Polish AB's and had test former enemy camp by "what would happen if ..."

When a Germany Tornados were in Babie Doły AB (equipped with Mig-21bis) they were convinced that the MiG-21 will acts as a ''boys for beating"

Meanwhile, to their astonishment at about a dozen battles that took place Migs in more than 90% were able to secretly approach to trusting in BVR Tornados and make them stout but, fortunately only simulated ...

Edited December 15, 2015 by Simon81

[Brisse]

My uncle served since the late 70's to the early 90's, so he met on the Baltic Sea rather older versions of mighty Viggens.

 

Most likely I think you uncle encountered unarmed recon and attack Viggen's. Since he served up until early 90's, the JA would have been in service during his time too, but I don't think he would have encountered it very often unless he was approaching Swedish airspace. The JA flew armed and closer to Swedish airspace. They would often be in the air at the same time as the unarmed planes flew further away, but they stayed behind and loitered, acting as a QRF just in case anything were to happen with the unarmed planes pushing further out from their bases.

[El Hadji]

Most likely I think you uncle encountered unarmed recon and attack Viggen's. Since he served up until early 90's, the JA would have been in service during his time too, but I don't think he would have encountered it very often unless he was approaching Swedish airspace. The JA flew armed and closer to Swedish airspace. They would often be in the air at the same time as the unarmed planes flew further away, but they stayed behind and loitered, acting as a QRF just in case anything were to happen with the unarmed planes pushing further out from their bases.

 

I know for a fact that fully armed JA37's came close to Polish borders (and possibly went across...) on at least one occasion: A Swedish fishing vessel with engine problems sent a distress signal and was drifting towards Gdynia (or somewhere close). Another Swedish fishing vessel steamed there and towed the stricken boat towards international waters. In the meantime a Warsaw pact navy vessel (most likely Soviet) raced towards them. Two JA37's was sent out to show force against the Warsaw pact patrol boat who then backed off. I know this since my friend flew one of the planes. The reason they sent the JA's was that they were already in the air south of Gotland when the request for assistance came.

[mattebubben]

I'm not so sure the bolded part is the general consensus? And at least the MiG-21bis can carry chaff/flares without a draggy dispenser.

 

The Viggen (even the AJ-37) has a more powerful engine and handels better at lower speeds so while a Mig-21 could be comparable at higher speeds at anything below 500km/h the viggen would have the edge in manuvering.

 

And i should probably clarify.

 

The Viggen would probably have the advantage in turning but the Mig-21 does have a superior Roll rate.

 

Yes a Mig-21 might be able to Pull tighter for short moments but a viggen would have a smaller turn radious and overall superior manuverabillity however slight said manuverabillity would be.

 

But then again it also depends on loadout.

 

For example a AJS-37 with Countermeassure pods 2 Aim-9s and the ordnance on the other 3 pylons having been jettisoned would probably have a disadvantage against a Mig-21 with only 4 single missiles on its pylons.

 

But if a AJS-37 with only 2-4 Aim-9s went up against a Mig-21 with 2 twin R-60 pylons the AJS-37 would have an advantage in manuverabillity.

 

And this is just my understanding from what i have read and the Viggen pilots ive talked.

 

I could be wrong but most of what ive read / heard says that the viggen was slightly more manuverable then the Mig-21 but not hugley so and ive not read anything saying the reverse.

 

And also my understanding for the Countermeassure pods is they where not really carried for defence against enemy aircraft all that much (in that case it was more about the pilot manuvering and staying low) but more for Air-Ground or recce missions.

 

 

But then again it goes back to the fact that as the AJS-37 is a Striker you should try to avoid tangeling with enemy fighters if possible.

Edited December 15, 2015 by mattebubben

[Brisse]

I know for a fact that fully armed JA37's came close to Polish borders (and possibly went across...) on at least one occasion: A Swedish fishing vessel with engine problems sent a distress signal and was drifting towards Gdynia (or somewhere close). Another Swedish fishing vessel steamed there and towed the stricken boat towards international waters. In the meantime a Warsaw pact navy vessel (most likely Soviet) raced towards them. Two JA37's was sent out to show force against the Warsaw pact patrol boat who then backed off. I know this since my friend flew one of the planes. The reason they sent the JA's was that they were already in the air south of Gotland when the request for assistance came.

 

I don't doubt your story, but I gotta say that is a strangely irrational response by the Swedish air force. The fishing boat would not be committing a crime by drifting into Polish territorial waters while in distress. By international law (UNCLOS), any ships in the vicinity, including Polish navy would have been obliged to assist the fishing vessel. By sending the Viggen's, the Swedish air force risked escalation for no reason.

[Simon81]

Very often "fishing boats" were equipped with lots of stuff that collect informations about electronic warfare, so maybe that was the reason ;)

[Brisse]

Very often "fishing boats" were equipped with lots of stuff that collect informations about electronic warfare, so maybe that was the reason ;)

 

So in plain English, it wasn't just a fishing boat, but an undercover SIGINT vessel. It makes sense now. :thumbup:

[RaXha]

So in plain English, it wasn't just a fishing boat, but an undercover SIGINT vessel. It makes sense now. :thumbup:

 

 

Well it might not have been but the risk of the Soviets suspecting it to be was probably quite high. :-)

[El Hadji]

I don't doubt your story, but I gotta say that is a strangely irrational response by the Swedish air force. The fishing boat would not be committing a crime by drifting into Polish territorial waters while in distress. By international law (UNCLOS), any ships in the vicinity, including Polish navy would have been obliged to assist the fishing vessel. By sending the Viggen's, the Swedish air force risked escalation for no reason.

 

I'm not sure how old you are or if you remember it well, but "international law" was not that relevant during the Cold War in the Baltic area. The fishing vessels in this case WERE fishing vessels but the Soviet navy didn't care much about that. There are some 19 Swedish vessels missing or found drifting without crew after 1948 where Soviet involvement was likely.

 

In September 1991 the Soviet foreign minister Boris Pankin visited Stockholm after a decision to make the frosty Stockholm-Moscow realtion better by the leaders in the Kremlin. Pankin explained Moscow's wish to help Sweden bring clarity to the issue with missing sailors. A month later the Swedish ambassador in Moscow, Örjan Berner, handed over a classified list of missing vessels and crews. Most of them went missing in the 50's and 60's but not all.

 

With that said, Sweden DID spy on the Soviet union both for our own military intelligence and for NATO. The most known case here is probably the Swedish DC-3 shot down by a Soviet MiG-15 in the 50's. A Catalina sent out to look for the missing DC-3 was also shot down by a MiG. But the missing commercial and fishing vessels were not spy ships.

 

So with that background I think the response to the incident I described was more than rational.

Edited December 15, 2015 by El Hadji

[Mjau]

I'm not sure how old you are or if you remember it well, but "international law" was not that relevant during the Cold War in the Baltic area. The fishing vessels in this case WERE fishing vessels but the Soviet navy didn't care much about that. There are some 19 Swedish vessels missing or found drifting without crew after 1948 where Soviet involvement was likely.

 

In September 1991 the Soviet foreign minister Boris Pankin visited Stockholm after a decision to make the frosty Stockholm-Moscow realtion better by the leaders in the Kremlin. Pankin explained Moscow's wish to help Sweden bring clarity to the issue with missing sailors. A month later the Swedish ambassador in Moscow, Örjan Berner, handed over a classified list of missing vessels and crews. Most of them went missing in the 50's and 60's but not all.

 

With that said, Sweden DID spy on the Soviet union both for our own military intelligence and for NATO. The most known case here is probably the Swedish DC-3 shot down by a Soviet MiG-15 in the 50's. A Catalina sent out to look for the missing DC-3 was also shot down by a MiG. But the missing commercial and fishing vessels were not spy ships.

 

So with that background I think the response to the incident I described was more than rational.

 

Have you seen the shot down DC-3 on display in the Flygvapenmuseum in Linköping? It was such an eerie experience seeing the wreckage there and learning the story about the crew, the mission and then how it just disappeared.

 

It definitely was a different time back then during the cold war. Not only that governments were less transparent but also what was considered rational or acceptable aswell.

[T0x1s]

Have you seen the shot down DC-3 on display in the Flygvapenmuseum in Linköping? It was such an eerie experience seeing the wreckage there and learning the story about the crew, the mission and then how it just disappeared.

 

It definitely was a different time back then during the cold war. Not only that governments were less transparent but also what was considered rational or acceptable aswell.

 

The display of the DC-3 was really well made. You could really see holes in the plane from gun shots

[emg]

But then again it goes back to the fact that as the AJS-37 is a Striker you should try to avoid tangeling with enemy fighters if possible.

Yeah, a lot of non-swedes confuse the AJ with the JA (even tho you've done your best to inform them it's a striker.) Oh well.

[PiedDroit]

Yeah, a lot of non-swedes confuse the AJ with the JA (even tho you've done your best to inform them it's a striker.) Oh well.

Let's use different denominations then, StrikerViggen and FighterViggen. Wait, too long to type.

I don't think it's only confusion though, in my case even if I *know* it's a strike aircraft I can't help thinking about pitting one against a MiG-21BIS :D

[Corrigan]

It's quite simple, really. The J stands for jakt, which means fighter (lit. hunt, hunter aircraft). A stands for attack, which I'm sure you don't need translation help with. The primary role is just the first letter in the designation; JA is fighter-attack and AJ(S) is attack-fighter(spaning = recon).

[Brisse]

Let's use different denominations then, StrikerViggen and FighterViggen.

 

Actually, swedes use those sometimes in spoken language. We say jaktviggen and attackviggen. It's pretty common actually.

[El Hadji]

Have you seen the shot down DC-3 on display in the Flygvapenmuseum in Linköping? It was such an eerie experience seeing the wreckage there and learning the story about the crew, the mission and then how it just disappeared.

 

It definitely was a different time back then during the cold war. Not only that governments were less transparent but also what was considered rational or acceptable aswell.

 

No I haven't yet but it is definatly on my to-do list!

[Sleksa]

I'm not sure how old you are or if you remember it well, but "international law" was not that relevant during the Cold War in the Baltic area. The fishing vessels in this case WERE fishing vessels but the Soviet navy didn't care much about that. There are some 19 Swedish vessels missing or found drifting without crew after 1948 where Soviet involvement was likely.

 

In September 1991 the Soviet foreign minister Boris Pankin visited Stockholm after a decision to make the frosty Stockholm-Moscow realtion better by the leaders in the Kremlin. Pankin explained Moscow's wish to help Sweden bring clarity to the issue with missing sailors. A month later the Swedish ambassador in Moscow, Örjan Berner, handed over a classified list of missing vessels and crews. Most of them went missing in the 50's and 60's but not all.

 

With that said, Sweden DID spy on the Soviet union both for our own military intelligence and for NATO. The most known case here is probably the Swedish DC-3 shot down by a Soviet MiG-15 in the 50's. A Catalina sent out to look for the missing DC-3 was also shot down by a MiG. But the missing commercial and fishing vessels were not spy ships.

 

So with that background I think the response to the incident I described was more than rational.

 

There were a plethora of cases also involving Sweden and Finland. In the mid 70's a Swedish fishing boat was boarded within Finnish waters suspected for being a spy ship, the crew of the coast guard saw them dump equipment overboard and some time later they were able to dive and bring 2 radios up which had their dials set for Kaliningrad mil frequencies. Between the finding and the diving the Swedes had already confidentially said that the ship in no way was spying on anyone, which made president Kekkonen somewhat mad. Besides this, several spyships had been mapping out potential locations for amphibious landings for decades, Norwegians had also been staging nato patrols deep within USSR territory through Finland, and the military intelligence wing of Sweden had been found mapping docks and renting apartments near mil. related sites.

 

With all that in mind, I can only imagine what the situation might've been between Sweden/Denmark/warsaw/ussr on the Baltic sea.

[OnlyforDCS]

Or there could have been a simpler reason to the example described above. The warsaw pact ship was steaming in as a response to an emergency signal from one of the fishing vessels. Soviet Captains were human too, and for every sailor , regardless of nationality, responding to a distress signal on the open sea is something that is almost instinctive.

[El Hadji]

Soviet Captains were human too, and for every sailor , regardless of nationality, responding to a distress signal on the open sea is something that is almost instinctive.

 

Yup... And as you can see here Sweden helped Soviets in distress as well (inside a Swedish military restriced area :D ).

 

[RaXha]

Yup... And as you can see here Sweden helped Soviets in distress as well (inside a Swedish military restriced area :D ).

 

Oh yes we were very helpfull when those guys showed up! xD

Edited December 17, 2015 by RaXha

[Brisse]

Haha. I wonder if non swedes understand the sarcasm here :)

 

I did my military service there some years ago, patrolling that naval base and archipelago. Sometimes I asked myself "will I see a stranded foreign submarine today?". It was a bit surrealistic knowing the history of the place. I'm not sure non swedes understand, but that was sort of like our "cuban missile crisis" during the cold war.

[RaXha]

Haha. I wonder if non swedes understand the sarcasm here :)

 

I did my military service there some years ago, patrolling that naval base and archipelago. Sometimes I asked myself "will I see a stranded foreign submarine today?". It was a bit surrealistic knowing the history of the place. I'm not sure non swedes understand, but that was sort of like our "cuban missile crisis" during the cold war.

 

Well, i canse they don't, here it is. I'm sure people have heard about this to some extent though. :)

[Hook47]

Well, i canse they don't, here it is. I'm sure people have heard about this to some extent though. :)

 

Thanks for this. Once the Viggen drops I'll be making a mission based on if this had gone bad in a more modern kind of setting