Crunchy Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Just when I thought I'd learned enough to get me started, I find something comes along that I don't have a clue about. I'm talking about the inertial navigation system (INS.) I currently fly the A10C, but I now notice the next aircraft I've purchased the Mirage 2000, is using INS. I'm just curious if this navigation method is something that's hard to grasp. I couldn't make heads or tails of it in the A10C, and I wasn't sure if it was even implemented in that aircraft. Anyways, is it a pain to learn or is it something that is quite easy to pick up?
Revelation Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Both the A- 10C and the Mirage use an INS. They are easy to use at the moment becuase you don't need to complete any INS updates as you fly. They have different levels of functionality from what I have read so far. That really revolves around the CDU, they way you access the INS. You are doing yourself a disservice by not learning it. I believe once you do it 1-2 you will understand it. Edited December 23, 2015 by Revelation Win 10 Pro 64Bit | 49" UWHD AOC 5120x1440p | AMD 5900x | 64Gb DDR4 | RX 6900XT
Kelevra9987 Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Sure you have an INS in the A-10 aswell but much more advanced as in the M2000C. In the A-10 it's called EGI wich stands for Embedded GPS INS. In the Mirage you wont have the GPS part so the INS accuracy will drift over time. I heard something like 1.2 km/h. But for a much more detailed description of the INS in the Mirage you have to wait 'till other, more experienced People answer. So I am interestet to learn about that subject too. Cheers Modules: Well... all of 'em ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Motherboard: ASUS Maximus VIII Hero | CPU: i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz | RAM: 32GB Corsair Vengance LPX DDR4 | GPU: GTX TITAN X (Maxwell) | SSD1: 256GB NVMe SSD System | SSD2: 250GB Games | HDD 4TB WD Red
Crunchy Posted December 23, 2015 Author Posted December 23, 2015 Sure you have an INS in the A-10 aswell but much more advanced as in the M2000C. In the A-10 it's called EGI wich stands for Embedded GPS INS. In the Mirage you wont have the GPS part so the INS accuracy will drift over time. I heard something like 1.2 km/h. But for a much more detailed description of the INS in the Mirage you have to wait 'till other, more experienced People answer. So I am interestet to learn about that subject too. Cheers I'm familiar with EGI, but I thought that INS was a whole new way of navigating. Would you say INS is like EGI, but without the moving map on the MFCD? I'm just a bit confused by the two.
jojo Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 The Mirage 2000 C don't have moving map but displays waypoint with their number on radar screen. Wpt 12 = +12 on screen. This feature and INS won't be in beta release. You also have range and direction to waypoint in HUD and HSI. Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi
mikpen14 Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Coming from an FSX background and helping bring the sstsim and ConcordeX to life, I'm very familiar with the civa-ins units on them. I wonder how much different the mirages will be? Also, I wonder if we will be able to do DME updating to keep the INS accuracy level high?
jojo Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Update are done by vertical overfly or radar ranging of WPT, aiming through the HUD. Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi
PiedDroit Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) I'm familiar with EGI, but I thought that INS was a whole new way of navigating. Would you say INS is like EGI, but without the moving map on the MFCD? I'm just a bit confused by the two. Hello, INS and GPI are only telling where the aircraft is. INS alone can drift over time. EGI is GPS+INS, it doesn't drift over time because the GPS position will be used to realign the INS part from time to time. The moving map is something unrelated, it's a display that takes a position as input that can come from any position provider, in the case of the A-10, that position provider is the EGI (edit: through CDU I think). Edited December 23, 2015 by PiedDroit
mjmorrow Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 I'm really looking forward to a clear and concise instructional video on how to program and use the INS. I suspect that the INS will be one of those sweet spot moderate difficulty concepts, that engages and challenges flight simmers, without being too complex to be fun and rewarding. I can't wait to master the INS! :thumbup: MJ [sIGPIC]http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv250/mjmorrow76/SPAD%20of%20a%20new%20generation_zpshcbftpce.png[/sIGPIC]
Crunchy Posted December 23, 2015 Author Posted December 23, 2015 The Mirage 2000 C don't have moving map but displays waypoint with their number on radar screen. Wpt 12 = +12 on screen. This feature and INS won't be in beta release. You also have range and direction to waypoint in HUD and HSI. Will this mean there will be no way of navigating while it's in beta? I mean, if there's no waypoints in the radar or INS?
PiedDroit Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 I'm really looking forward to a clear and concise instructional video on how to program and use the INS. I suspect that the INS will be one of those sweet spot moderate difficulty concepts, that engages and challenges flight simmers, without being too complex to be fun and rewarding. I can't wait to master the INS! :thumbup: MJ I think it's complexity is similar to the Ka-50's PVI-800's
jojo Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 You won't be able to manually edit/ insert WPT in INS system. But you wil be able to navigate through WPT like any DCS plane, and read some data on PCN (Mirage's CDU) Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi
Paradox Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Doesn't the INS panel have provision for entering coordinates from UTM or something like that? Or do the waypoints have to be loaded from a data cartridge?
Revelation Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Doesn't the INS panel have provision for entering coordinates from UTM or something like that? Or do the waypoints have to be loaded from a data cartridge? Lat\Long can be entered via the "CDU." It's called something slightly different like CDA or something like that. There's been no mention of UTM acceptance via the computer or not. Win 10 Pro 64Bit | 49" UWHD AOC 5120x1440p | AMD 5900x | 64Gb DDR4 | RX 6900XT
OnlyforDCS Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Well Ill just settle for getting to grips with the systems available at beta launch, and learn the more complicated stuff as it becomes available. Zeus recently confirmed that later on (I hope during beta, but probably only at full release) training missions will be available for both the NTTR as well as the Black Sea map so those will be pretty fun too. From what little Ive seen of the cockpit, it really seems quite user friendly, there don't seem to be too many systems to get to grips with and those it does feature seem pretty straightforward (compared to the A10C for example) to use. Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.
jojo Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 It's mainly a Fox 1 Air Defense fighter, with a lot of automated features to take off quickly. Yes it's pretty simple aircraft. I don't think air defense fighters use UTM...sorry for CAS but it's secondary role. CDU = PCN in Mirage 2000 Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi
Flamin_Squirrel Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 I'm familiar with EGI, but I thought that INS was a whole new way of navigating. Would you say INS is like EGI, but without the moving map on the MFCD? I'm just a bit confused by the two. INS - Inertial Navigation System This is a very general term for a navigation system that, as strange as it sounds, has no idea where you actually are! At start up, an INS system needs to be told where it is (e.g. lat/long); from here, it senses when and in what direction the aircraft moves (via accelerometers) to assess what direction it's moving in. By constantly summing these movements (and being told where it started from) it can give you an idea where you are at the current time. INS systems, even modern ones (sometimes called IRS (Inertial Reference System)) are not 100% accurate, so summing errors creep in causing them to 'drift' over time. While GPS is far more accurate, it is subject to jamming/interference. INS is completely contained within the aircraft so is more reliable. The EGI in the A10C has the best of both worlds: it has the reliability of the INS, but the INS also gets constant GPS updates to correct summing errors and improving its accuracy. INS/GPS (or combined as EGI) simply provides a lat/long of where you are (or where it thinks you are) and nothing more. How this lat/long position is displayed to the pilot is completely separate matter. It could be a moving map on an MFCD like in the A10C, or it could provide a numerical read out like the INS on the Concorde. In terms of sophistication, it looks like the Mirage is somewhere in the middle of the two.
Crunchy Posted December 23, 2015 Author Posted December 23, 2015 Some great info here, it's given me an understanding of how this works now. It's one thing setting something up, but you first have to understand what it does to know what's going on. Thanks for the info all.
dpatt711 Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 INS is simply an internal system that feeds information to certain devices. INS is not a gauge or indicator. It can be translated if it was aligned properly to feed an instrument that indicates location. INS errors compound due to the fact that it is an internal system. After an hour it may be off by half a mile. After two hours it may be off by 5 miles. So things like ILS, VOR, TACAN, ADF, NDB are separate. Those are external fixed systems that communicate via some form of EM. They don't lose accuracy. INS would only apply for things like navigating to a way-point. If I want you to fly over a factory, I can't set up a radio beacon to guide you, and you can't rely on visual navigation. It'll most likely be pre-loaded via data cartridges (Mission editor) and you'l simply scroll through them and they'll show up on HUD or HDI.
scotchegg Posted December 24, 2015 Posted December 24, 2015 I'm really looking forward to a clear and concise instructional video on how to program and use the INS. I suspect that the INS will be one of those sweet spot moderate difficulty concepts, that engages and challenges flight simmers, without being too complex to be fun and rewarding. I can't wait to master the INS! :thumbup: MJ I'm looking forward to a whole series of clear and concise instructional videos on how to do pretty much everything.
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