S530 Range

[Zeus67]

Hello folks!

 

Please allow me to talk a little about the M-2000C and its main weapon: The Super 530D missile.

 

Let's see what wikipedia says about the missile:

 

The Matra Super 530 is a French short to medium-range air-to-air missile. The Super 530 series is an improved type of the R.530 missile.

 

• Super 530F is carried on the Dassault Mirage F1. It was introduced in 1979.
  
• Super 530D is carried on the Dassault-Breguet Mirage 2000. It was introduced in 1988.
  
• The Super 530 is being replaced by the MICA (missile).
  

 

The Super 530D retains the same general aerodynamic features and internal layout as its Super 530F predecessor, with cruciform low aspect ratio wings and cruciform aft controls.

 

Guidance is by the mono-pulse AD26 CW Doppler semi-active seeker, which has improved ECCM capability, and improved capability against low-flying targets. The missile's guidance unit is also fitted with digital micro-processing, which enables the seeker to be reprogrammed against new threats. The missile has a claimed maximum interception altitude of 24,400 m (80,100 ft), with a snap-up capability of 12,200 m (40,000 ft), and a snap-down capability to targets at 60 m (200 ft). The missile has a range of 40 km and a maximum speed of Mach 5.

So, here we have; a Mach 5 missile with a 40 Km (21.6 nautical miles) range and a good semi-active seeker with improved ECCM capability and able to hit low-flying targets (in other words it is not blinded by the ground).

 

In DCS, we have the AI Mirage 2000-5, which strangely enough was armed with the Super 530F and not the D version. During almost all the time we have been developing the aircraft, the only missile available to us was the Super 530F, and we used it for a while.

 

But since the M-2000C never used the F, we requested from ED to give us the D version, which they did. They converted the in-game F into the D by using all the information we could get about the missile.

 

Among that information we found that the range changes based on launch altitude. So that wikipedia's 40Km max range is actually only possible when flying at or above 40,000 feet. Same for max speed by the way, the higher the launch altitude, the faster it goes.

 

Why am I telling you this? Because when we received our brand new missiles we went and tested them and... the rage began. :)

 

The beta tester was saying that the missile did not attain the posted range, it was too slow, it couldn't hit the targets, etc. He was, actually still is, very unhappy.

 

So today, I decided to test it and did several missions against different targets and my findings were the following:

 

1. The missile is to be considered a beta version that needs some work in the seeker. It can be easily decoyed by saturating the air with chaff. It is a 100% miss if you combine a jammer with the chaff.

2. The missile, to my surprise flies quite well and tracks its target and calculates its intercept vector. Unfortunately if you launch it at low flying targets it tend to fly into the ground, because the intercept vector it calculates happens to be below ground level. Keep that in mind.

3. The missile max range conforms to the launch altitude as indicated above. So keep that in mind as well when engaging with the Super 530D.

 

Yep, thanks to TacView I was able to review the flight path of all the missiles I fired and to my surprise the missile performed quite well even if it takes two to shoot down a single target.

 

So what were the lessons learned for engaging targets with the Super 530D?

1. Be aware that your target can and will launch a lot of chaff, spoofing the seeker. If your target has a jammer it works against you.

2. The missile is not dumb except for one thing. It does not recognize terrain, so it works better to shoot up as opposed to shoot down. Specially if your target flies close to the ground. You never knows if the missile will find an intercept solution that is 10 meters below ground, because your target happened to be in a shallow dive.

3. Do not fire at max range. The max range is an ideal situation that seldom occurs. Also, it changes with target aspect and altitude. Hold your fire until you are at least at 80% of max range for your altitude, (the HUD will provide range cues) improving the interception probabilities. Head-on intercepts are the best, the closing speed between you and the target helps a lot, but remember that your target will maneuver and that works on his favor. Every time the missile must maneuver, subtracts energy from its flight until it is unable to intercept. If you are on a chase, don't waste the missile. Range is super short and the probabilities are high against an intercept.

 

About missile energy, let me tell you what happened in one of my test flights. It was me vs 2 heavily laden Su-25s. I had to protect a vehicle formation. My altitude was 7000 feet. I found them on radar at 30 nmiles. First time on the mission, I fired at 19 nmiles only to see the missile drop to the ground before it could reach my target. Next time I took care to see our closure speed, nearly Mach 1, and shot at 15 nmiles. The missile flew true and went in for a beautiful intercept but to my surprise it flew below the target before dropping to the ground. I shot the second at 10 nmiles and it blew the target.

 

Upon reviewing the TacView record, I saw something interesting that I had missed while flying. The Su-25 AI pilot at the middle point of the missile flight, made a U turn! It flew away from the missile! It kept flying in that direction for about 10 seconds before making another U turn and resuming its previous flight path. But those 10 seconds of tail chase were enough to open the range in such way that my first missile had lost all energy and when its flight path and the Su-25's flight path merged it could not hit it since it was already dropping to the ground. I don't know why the AI did that U turn. They usually just fill the air with chaff and start jinxing but not this one and it worked for him, until it ate the second one fired a lot closer.

 

So next time in this scenario I held my fire until 12 nmiles and this time the missile went for the intercept, only to lose radar lock at the last moment for a miss! So next lesson learned: sh*t happens. The rage was real, but there was nothing I could do.

 

Folks, the Super 530D is a semi-active homing missiles. It is not a fire and forget missile. It needs you to keep your radar aimed at your target. And that puts you in a vulnerable position for the entire missile flight time. I got hit many times by my target companion because of that. Also, it is not a 100% guaranteed kill. Not even the real one has that guarantee. The AIM-7M Sparrow, which is the American equivalent, had in Desert Storm, according to wikipedia, a 68% probability of a hit. And of those hit, it only had a 54% kill probability, meaning that the missile was only effective 37% of the time. I seriously doubt that the real Super 530D will get better numbers than that. It can probably go to 40% or 45% but still that means that you need to fire at least 2 to shoot down a target. Something that our tests in DCS prove.

 

My reason for writing this wall of text is for you to be aware that there are many variables in play for a successful intercept in both real life and in simulation. Keep that in mind when flying the M-2000C and using the Super 530Ds.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Zeus67

[mvsgas]

Cool, thanks

[Brisse]

Looking good. The reason that some people get upset I think is due to having wrong expectations. Simulators from the 90's and 00's had missiles that didn't follow the laws of physics and therefore they performed too well. That has influenced people's expectations of what missiles can do.

[TomCatMucDe]

That's why i go guns guns guns!

Missiles are good to put the bandit in an unfavorable situation during the merge if he doesn't get hit. You finish him with guns or IR missiles when he can't maneuver much

[Slipp]

How does the in-game Super 530D compare to in-game R-27 and Sparrow?

Any experts that can draw up a comparison with the data that Zeus posted?

[OnlyforDCS]

Thanks for this post. It answers most of the questions I had about the performance of this missile. From this, and other posts, we can deduce that the M2000C is a formidable knife fighter that mostly uses it's 2xMatraD loadout to put the enemy on the defensive so it can close in and finish the fight with its 2xMagicII and its guns.

[TomCatMucDe]

Thanks for this post. It answers most of the questions I had about the performance of this missile. From this, and other posts, we can deduce that the M2000C is a formidable knife fighter that mostly uses it's 2xMatraD loadout to put the enemy on the defensive so it can close in and finish the fight with its 2xMagicII and its guns.

 

 

If the performance of the 530D is as described by Zeus and that it is realistic and would remain roughly like this, I think it's gonna be the only strategy.

But against the flanker or the f15 they would put you on defensive before you do. I'm curious how we could approach them? Probably the jammer would force them to get closer but still, they have a better range...

[Slipp]

If the performance of the 530D is as described by Zeus and that it is realistic and would remain roughly like this, I think it's gonna be the only strategy.

But against the flanker or the f15 they would put you on defensive before you do. I'm curious how we could approach them? Probably the jammer would force them to get closer but still, they have a better range...

 

If we do it realistically, Mirage won't have to fight F-15 and when fighting Su-27, Flanker won't have Extended Range Alamo and no jammers. :music_whistling:

[Zeus67]

If the performance of the 530D is as described by Zeus and that it is realistic and would remain roughly like this, I think it's gonna be the only strategy.

But against the flanker or the f15 they would put you on defensive before you do. I'm curious how we could approach them? Probably the jammer would force them to get closer but still, they have a better range...

 

Prowler told me that he can't handle a Su-27 in a BVR scenario. The fact that the Super 530D is a SARH missile is a big liability. Since he has to fly steady to hit his target, he becomes too vulnerable to the Flanker's weapons. In this case the Flanker outranges him forcing him to either break lock or die.

 

I guess this is why MICA was developed.

[VIRUS_AT]

Wow, thx for the very detailed know how transfer.

[TomCatMucDe]

The M-2000C and the Super 530D

 

Prowler told me that he can't handle a Su-27 in a BVR scenario. The fact that the Super 530D is a SARH missile is a big liability. Since he has to fly steady to hit his target, he becomes too vulnerable to the Flanker's weapons. In this case the Flanker outranges him forcing him to either break lock or die.

 

I guess this is why MICA was developed.

 

 

Well, to fight eagles and Flankers we will have to wait for the RDY version and the MICA one day from you guys

 

On a more serious note, The 530D doesn't detect the ground, is this a missing capability of the missiles in DCS that can be fixed , or is it the way it is in real as well?

[Zeus67]

Well, to fight eagles and Flankers we will have to wait for the RDY version and the MICA one day from you guys

 

On a more serious note, The 530D doesn't detect the ground, is this a missing capability of the missiles in DCS that can be fixed , or is it the way it is in real as well?

 

I think it is a DCS issue. After all, there is no missile at all but a simulation of one and DCS is the one calculating the intercept vector. I guess that in a "shoot down, look down" situation the system does not take into account the terrain and if your target is flying too low and in a shallow dive then it will find an intercept solution below terrain level.

[TomCatMucDe]

I think it is a DCS issue. After all, there is no missile at all but a simulation of one and DCS is the one calculating the intercept vector. I guess that in a "shoot down, look down" situation the system does not take into account the terrain and if your target is flying too low and in a shallow dive then it will find an intercept solution below terrain level.

 

 

Without wanting to be too annoying about this, I just want to ask whether you have reported this to ED, and is this unique to the 530D? The other SARH missiles don't seem to have this issue.

 

It's anyways a beta version and some stuff will be unfinished or need to be polished. But we asked and wanted to get our hands on the product fully knowing the risks. And yes I still want it and can't wait for it !

[Slipp]

Prowler told me that he can't handle a Su-27 in a BVR scenario. The fact that the Super 530D is a SARH missile is a big liability. Since he has to fly steady to hit his target, he becomes too vulnerable to the Flanker's weapons. In this case the Flanker outranges him forcing him to either break lock or die.

 

I guess this is why MICA was developed.

 

From Mirage Q&A:

 

Q: what is the "natural" opponent for the M-2000C in DCS World (the MiG-21bis is to old the F-15C is to new)?

A: Any enemy aircraft that challenges it. The aircraft is contemporary with Mig-29s, Mig-31s, Su-27s (to mention the most modern soviet block aircrafts). It can face any threat it meets.

 

I guess us Mirage pilots will have to be really good to live up to this statement. :):D

 

Can't wait to give it a shot! Sounds like a real challenge!

[Zeus67]

Without wanting to be too annoying about this, I just want to ask whether you have reported this to ED, and is this unique to the 530D? The other SARH missiles don't seem to have this issue.

 

It's anyways a beta version and some stuff will be unfinished or need to be polished. But we asked and wanted to get our hands on the product fully knowing the risks. And yes I still want it and can't wait for it !

 

You're not annoying and your concern is ours. To be honest, we don't want to report something to ED until we are pretty sure of what is happening. This is my finding after firing two missiles at a low flying target and watching the missile trajectory in TacView. I saw both of them impact the ground in front of the target aircraft and since they had the range, the only explanation left is that their intercept solution was below ground level.

 

Remember that you don't aim at where the target is, but at where it is going to be.

[Zeus67]

From Mirage Q&A:

 

Q: what is the "natural" opponent for the M-2000C in DCS World (the MiG-21bis is to old the F-15C is to new)?

A: Any enemy aircraft that challenges it. The aircraft is contemporary with Mig-29s, Mig-31s, Su-27s (to mention the most modern soviet block aircrafts). It can face any threat it meets.

 

I guess us Mirage pilots will have to be really good to live up to this statement. :):D

 

Can't wait to give it a shot! Sounds like a real challenge!

 

Remember that I said in a BVR scenario. In close combat the Su-27 is fair game.

[jcbak]

I'm a pre-purchaser and I'm getting less and less excited about the upcoming release. I should have done more research about this model before pulling the trigger.

[XeNoise]

I'm a pre-purchaser and I'm getting less and less excited about the upcoming release. I should have done more research about this model before pulling the trigger.

 

Your money will be invested in the correction of such inperfaction, or it will allow razbam to use other money to do this. So i don't know where is the problem. If you get less excited for such reasons, maybe you're not the kind of person suited for beta testing.

[Cantiga]

I'm a pre-purchaser and I'm getting less and less excited about the upcoming release. I should have done more research about this model before pulling the trigger.

Then you can ask the refund.

[TomCatMucDe]

I'm a pre-purchaser and I'm getting less and less excited about the upcoming release. I should have done more research about this model before pulling the trigger.

 

maybe you can elaborate why? in what other current and upcoming aircrafts better or more capable?

[jcbak]

F18 Hornet

[jcbak]

maybe you can elaborate why? in what other current and upcoming aircrafts better or more capable?

What is the strength of this aircraft? Folks are talking about strategy that might work against Flankers and Eagles. That's fine for the gaming aspect but from a realistic simulation point of view....how realistic is that? Not being a gamer per se, that doesn't give me any WOW factor. I didn't realize I could get a refund with a Pre-purchase. Thanks for the info.

[TomCatMucDe]

What is the strength of this aircraft? Folks are talking about strategy that might work against Flankers and Eagles. That's fine for the gaming aspect but from a realistic simulation point of view....how realistic is that? Not being a gamer per se, that doesn't give me any WOW factor. I didn't realize I could get a refund with a Pre-purchase. Thanks for the info.

 

i dont understand your concern about realism. the real M2000C is less capable than the flanker and the eagle in BVR. So are the F16, MiG29 and the F18. So what did get you disappointed ? and in what trying to find a strategy to face those air superiority jets makes it unrealistic? quite the opposite in real it is absolutely the same.

[Hook47]

I'm a pre-purchaser and I'm getting less and less excited about the upcoming release. I should have done more research about this model before pulling the trigger.

 

It's not like Razbam pulled a bait and switch here, bud. We've known what we were getting from the beginning... And I'm totally stoked for it. I enjoy flying far less capable aircraft than the M2000C, but I've stated from the beginning it will be at an advantage against many other 4th gen fighters.

[jcbak]

i dont understand your concern about realism. the real M2000C is less capable than the flanker and the eagle in BVR. So are the F16, MiG29 and the F18. So what did get you disappointed ? and in what trying to find a strategy to face those air superiority jets makes it unrealistic? quite the opposite in real it is absolutely the same.

I should have done more research on this aircraft before pre-purchase. That's on me...not blaming anyone. I was hoping for an aircraft that could add another dimension to missions......like SEAD for instance. This Mirage isn't adding anything from my point of view. I would love to have a NATO SEAD aircraft. I'm looking forward to the day when there is a western, AFM aircraft with a fully clickable cockpit that is on a par with the current DCS Eagle or Flanker models. Forgive me for being a downer....it's my weepy time of the month.