S530 Range

[jojo]

The radar pencil of a fighter is around 3 degrees. So at 15Nm or even 10Nm it's wide (970m at 10Nm).

 

So yes chaffs can be in the pencil at the same time as the fighter.

 

But there topic on this issue, since it seems to many people way too effective. It's not specific to Mirage and Super 530D...

Edited December 10, 2015 by jojo

[Bacab]

Hi Zeus,

 

you wrote, that the AI deployed a lot of chaff to brake the lock of the missile. But a semi-active seeker doesn't have an own lock, he only follows the reflection of the radar reflection of the platforms radar lock.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-active_radar_homing#/media/File:Missile_homing.jpg

 

This would mean, that the AI broke the radar lock of the Mirage with chaff. DCS didn't support this feature until now. In DCS, you can't brake a radar lock with chaff. So, is this a new feature or is there a bug?

The receiver on the missile does use a sort of rejection filter to get rid of parasite echoes (coming from the ground for instance) the same way an active radar does (indeed the wikipedia page about CW radar explain in details why).

Therefore in reality you can break the lock of a SARH missile the same way you could break the lock of an active radar. Since the receiver on the plane and on the missile does not share the same aspect it is possible for a SARH missile to loose its lock while the guiding plane still has it.

 

A more simpler explanation could be that the signal was lost for a few seconds. Since the radar has a memory it does not immediately display the target as lost but indeed it is. If the target is acquired again just after that you (the pilot) may not notice the signal was lost for a few seconds but the missile is already lost.

 

However I'm not sure those mechanics are implemented in DCS.

[mjmorrow]

Ok, so....team play is a MUST flying the Mirage.

 

+1 I am going to outfit my Mirage with the most advanced form of team speak I can find and enlist the help of my fellow DOW squad mates. I just hope they show up in M-2000c's and not P-51 Mustangs. It is a force of habit with us, you know. :megalol:

[BlackLion213]

What is the strength of this aircraft? Folks are talking about strategy that might work against Flankers and Eagles. That's fine for the gaming aspect but from a realistic simulation point of view....how realistic is that? Not being a gamer per se, that doesn't give me any WOW factor. I didn't realize I could get a refund with a Pre-purchase. Thanks for the info.

 

The Mirage 2000C is actually a small airplane, nearly identical dimensions in size and weight to a Block 1 F-16A. It is also more of a F-16C (Block 25) and F-14A/B contemporary than the AMRAAM equipped F-15C (Mirage 2000C went operational in the mid-80s and the RDI aircraft were flying by 1988 ). Yet it has real BVR capability that is quite comparable to the early block F-16C's, plus the 530D seems to have a bit more range than the comparable Sparrow. Pretty compelling for a small aircraft - the Flanker weighs 2.5x as much! There should be some advantage to all that size. ;) The Mirage pilot will have a much easier time spotting a Flanker in WVR than vice-versa.

 

My 2 cents,

 

-Nick

Edited December 11, 2015 by BlackLion213

[OnlyforDCS]

I'll chime in and try to answer that. Missiles in DCS are using an advanced flight model. They are not scripted to reach a certain fixed speed or anything like that. The missile has weight, drag, lift and thrust etc... and the physical forces are simulated in real time. Under these circumstances the answer to your question is obviously YES, the speed of the launch platform affects the missile in a manner that is realistic. It has to follow the laws of physics.

 

Sorry Brisse but AFAIK thats not true for all missiles in DCS. Sure the popular Fc3 missiles have all been ported to an AFM* but Most missiles (like the Mig21 R3R for example) especially those used by the AI are still SFM.

 

 

* very questionable use of the word advanced with all the problems these missiles have.

Edited December 11, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[LeCuvier]

Welcome to reality!

 

This post is interesting but no surprise to me. My favorite jet fighter is the F-15C as it gives me the best chance to win and survive. I use the AIM-120C almost exclusively as the AIM-9 works only at very close range and is easily distracted by flares. And the AIM-9 makes me as easy a target as a sitting duck while I have to illuminate my first target.

Even with the AIM-120C I never fire before the target is within 20nm or less and I usually fire two missiles, the second one about 5 s after the first so the target has already lost energy trying to evade the first one when the second comes close. Quite often I have to fire a third one to get a kill. When the situation is right I use the gun instead. The F-15C's gun coupled with the radar in VS mode is a marvel! But watch out for those R-73 they can fire "over the shoulder"!

As for misslies my principles is "better waste a missile than lose my kite!"

A question though: does the M2000 have active radar homing missiles at all?

[Angel101]

The receiver on the missile does use a sort of rejection filter to get rid of parasite echoes (coming from the ground for instance) the same way an active radar does (indeed the wikipedia page about CW radar explain in details why).

Therefore in reality you can break the lock of a SARH missile the same way you could break the lock of an active radar. Since the receiver on the plane and on the missile does not share the same aspect it is possible for a SARH missile to loose its lock while the guiding plane still has it.

 

A more simpler explanation could be that the signal was lost for a few seconds. Since the radar has a memory it does not immediately display the target as lost but indeed it is. If the target is acquired again just after that you (the pilot) may not notice the signal was lost for a few seconds but the missile is already lost.

 

However I'm not sure those mechanics are implemented in DCS.

 

It´s more simple, I quote GGtharos

 

 

What is modeled in the game is, if the missile sees chaff, it rolls a die to see if it will track the chaff instead of the intended target.

 

 

From http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152573&page=5

[TomCatMucDe]

This post is interesting but no surprise to me. My favorite jet fighter is the F-15C as it gives me the best chance to win and survive. I use the AIM-120C almost exclusively as the AIM-9 works only at very close range and is easily distracted by flares. And the AIM-9 makes me as easy a target as a sitting duck while I have to illuminate my first target.

Even with the AIM-120C I never fire before the target is within 20nm or less and I usually fire two missiles, the second one about 5 s after the first so the target has already lost energy trying to evade the first one when the second comes close. Quite often I have to fire a third one to get a kill. When the situation is right I use the gun instead. The F-15C's gun coupled with the radar in VS mode is a marvel! But watch out for those R-73 they can fire "over the shoulder"!

As for misslies my principles is "better waste a missile than lose my kite!"

A question though: does the M2000 have active radar homing missiles at all?

 

Well, I fly in DCS to get a realistic experience of a fighter pilot. The FC3 planes doesn't offer that but rather an arcade, and that's why we want this M2000C. Let's therefore stick to the Mirage and not derail the topic.

 

To answer your question, no the M2000C has only semi active radar homing missiles like the Su27.

[OnlyforDCS]

A question though: does the M2000 have active radar homing missiles at all?

 

No actives on the M2000C.

[Bacab]

It´s more simple, I quote GGtharos

 

 

 

From http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152573&page=5

Yeah I have seen it too but after I posted :)

 

I don't know the exact signal aspect of the echo from the decoy I am just guessing but I think IRL the chaff could received enough power from the emitting aircraft so the receiver in the missile mistake it for a brief moment for its target and then it may not be able to get back to the true target. Therefore the implemented logic make sense.

[Pikey]

Zeus, radar locks breaking, trashing missiles, intercepts below the ground are all normal. It's difficult to give a PK. The in game Sparrow is not do strong at it's max range either. The game simulates the doppler notch fairly consistently so you see that when the lock turns. The PK sways hugely depending on your adversary and in PvP some of the decent players will be trashing these without too much effort, they had to live with AMRAAM which has a HOJ mode and I had a PK that felt like 5-10% with AMRAAM's in Blue Flag which might be quite high compared to an AI AMRAAM PK around 80%.

 

The plane is what it is, and you make it as close to what it should be as possible. The fact that some folks are looking for a PvP tool is their issue and I would hate to be a developer of a module in a simulator that allows for Player versus Player "Next gen most imba weapon". For some reason, some people expect balancing :)

 

There WILL be some tears here because people will want a full fidelity ASM to be fully competitive against the existing FC3 suite. The end result is that PvP will warp the tactics from what may have been real life to a more competitive tactic set for what the game provides. Thats going to be a low fight in the weeds, heads up, radar off ambush type to nullify BVR advantage. It may be that this airframes main advantage will be the first turn+heater shot.

 

Outside of the competitive bracket (which i hate to see with different class planes) the mission designer is free to equalise these issues as they want to and the problem goes away. Again, up to the mission designer to set the challenge, not the aircraft as is so often touted.

 

As a mission designer we have Mig21 players looking for this extra challenge and I can drop in GCI or take it away and make the challenge completely different again without touching the planes. So really, what i'm saying is, people need to not get hung up on percieved "RELATIVE" capabilities and start loving aviation. Improve your competitive skills, of course, but keep expectations to yourself, ask for FULL ASM server only or design mission content that sets the level of challenge you want.

 

The quality of the module is not judged by it's lethality, by anyone with common sense.

[sedenion]

Do you have it for R-27R and AIM-7M ? :D

 

No, that's why i ask for... I am curious about forces and weakness of these missiles (including S-530D), since the public informations about these missiles appear discutable... like the claimed max range for example, that vary from simple to triple according the source.

[TomCatMucDe]

Zeus, radar locks breaking, trashing missiles, intercepts below the ground are all normal. It's difficult to give a PK. The in game Sparrow is not do strong at it's max range either. The game simulates the doppler notch fairly consistently so you see that when the lock turns. The PK sways hugely depending on your adversary and in PvP some of the decent players will be trashing these without too much effort, they had to live with AMRAAM which has a HOJ mode and I had a PK that felt like 5-10% with AMRAAM's in Blue Flag which might be quite high compared to an AI AMRAAM PK around 80%.

 

The plane is what it is, and you make it as close to what it should be as possible. The fact that some folks are looking for a PvP tool is their issue and I would hate to be a developer of a module in a simulator that allows for Player versus Player "Next gen most imba weapon". For some reason, some people expect balancing :)

 

There WILL be some tears here because people will want a full fidelity ASM to be fully competitive against the existing FC3 suite. The end result is that PvP will warp the tactics from what may have been real life to a more competitive tactic set for what the game provides. Thats going to be a low fight in the weeds, heads up, radar off ambush type to nullify BVR advantage. It may be that this airframes main advantage will be the first turn+heater shot.

 

Outside of the competitive bracket (which i hate to see with different class planes) the mission designer is free to equalise these issues as they want to and the problem goes away. Again, up to the mission designer to set the challenge, not the aircraft as is so often touted.

 

As a mission designer we have Mig21 players looking for this extra challenge and I can drop in GCI or take it away and make the challenge completely different again without touching the planes. So really, what i'm saying is, people need to not get hung up on percieved "RELATIVE" capabilities and start loving aviation. Improve your competitive skills, of course, but keep expectations to yourself, ask for FULL ASM server only or design mission content that sets the level of challenge you want.

 

The quality of the module is not judged by it's lethality, by anyone with common sense.

 

fully agree

[Tello]

That was beautiful written! :thumbup: :smartass:

 

Zeus, radar locks breaking, trashing missiles, intercepts below the ground are all normal. It's difficult to give a PK. The in game Sparrow is not do strong at it's max range either. The game simulates the doppler notch fairly consistently so you see that when the lock turns. The PK sways hugely depending on your adversary and in PvP some of the decent players will be trashing these without too much effort, they had to live with AMRAAM which has a HOJ mode and I had a PK that felt like 5-10% with AMRAAM's in Blue Flag which might be quite high compared to an AI AMRAAM PK around 80%.

 

The plane is what it is, and you make it as close to what it should be as possible. The fact that some folks are looking for a PvP tool is their issue and I would hate to be a developer of a module in a simulator that allows for Player versus Player "Next gen most imba weapon". For some reason, some people expect balancing :)

 

There WILL be some tears here because people will want a full fidelity ASM to be fully competitive against the existing FC3 suite. The end result is that PvP will warp the tactics from what may have been real life to a more competitive tactic set for what the game provides. Thats going to be a low fight in the weeds, heads up, radar off ambush type to nullify BVR advantage. It may be that this airframes main advantage will be the first turn+heater shot.

 

Outside of the competitive bracket (which i hate to see with different class planes) the mission designer is free to equalise these issues as they want to and the problem goes away. Again, up to the mission designer to set the challenge, not the aircraft as is so often touted.

 

As a mission designer we have Mig21 players looking for this extra challenge and I can drop in GCI or take it away and make the challenge completely different again without touching the planes. So really, what i'm saying is, people need to not get hung up on percieved "RELATIVE" capabilities and start loving aviation. Improve your competitive skills, of course, but keep expectations to yourself, ask for FULL ASM server only or design mission content that sets the level of challenge you want.

 

The quality of the module is not judged by it's lethality, by anyone with common sense.

[Bacab]

No, that's why i ask for... I am curious about forces and weakness of these missiles (including S-530D), since the public informations about these missiles appear discutable... like the claimed max range for example, that vary from simple to triple according the source.

Because there is no common definition of max. range. Is it the maximum kinetic range (at which altitude, what speed for the launching aircraft...), is it the max. range displayed on the hud ? (beware as constructor doesn't use the same algorithm to compute those). Is the target manoeuvring (how many G, in which direction ?, for how long ?).

 

Here I only discuss one parameter and it is already a mess, now imagine if we try to define seeker performance ! You would end up with thousands of test case scenario and still have no idea how to compare figures between missile.

[jojo]

Current DCS BVR missiles PK is close to 0 if targets has chaffs. All missiles.

 

TacView track are very informative about that.

 

The only way around is to shoot at point blank range so the target don't have time to release enough chaffs.

 

In the same time AI can shoot R-60M head on (really straight head on).

Edited December 11, 2015 by jojo

[PE_Crni]

The quality of the module is not judged by it's lethality, by anyone with common sense.

 

Amen to that. :thumbup:

[Arden]

I got the module because of a few reasons.

 

1) I want to have a full fidelity, 4th generation fighter jet. (which it is)

 

2) I want to have a highly mobile dogfighting/WVR platform (which it also is).

 

 

Personally, I have no issues with the Mirage 2000C lacking a bit in the BVR department.

[sedenion]

Because there is no common definition of max. range. Is it the maximum kinetic range (at which altitude, what speed for the launching aircraft...), is it the max. range displayed on the hud ? (beware as constructor doesn't use the same algorithm to compute those). Is the target manoeuvring (how many G, in which direction ?, for how long ?).

 

Here I only discuss one parameter and it is already a mess, now imagine if we try to define seeker performance ! You would end up with thousands of test case scenario and still have no idea how to compare figures between missile.

 

I understand, but we can (theorycally) have some objective caracteristics, like the engine power and thrust duration. That can at least give us an aproximate "max range" in an ideal straight line. No ?

[Brisse]

I understand, but we can (theorycally) have some objective caracteristics, like the engine power and thrust duration. That can at least give us an aproximate "max range" in an ideal straight line. No ?

 

Add weight and drag to that and you will be able to make some calculations yes. It's pretty basic rocket science. Ever played Kerbal Space Program? :)

[Arden]

Add weight and drag to that and you will be able to make some calculations yes. It's pretty basic rocket science. Ever played Kerbal Space Program? :)

 

Poor Kerbals.

 

I still remember the first time I did an atmospheric re-entry when they released the new aerodynamics system.

 

The look on Jebediah's face...

[sedenion]

Add weight and drag to that and you will be able to make some calculations yes. It's pretty basic rocket science.

 

That's just what i ask for... some basic "flight model" parameters to compare those missiles... something to show us that "Ok, the S-530D is a very weak missile compared to AIM-7 and R-27R" or "Ok, the S-530D is not really outclassed and still a good challenger"

 

Ever played Kerbal Space Program? :)

 

No :)

[enigma6584]

Zeus, radar locks breaking, trashing missiles, intercepts below the ground are all normal. It's difficult to give a PK. The in game Sparrow is not do strong at it's max range either. The game simulates the doppler notch fairly consistently so you see that when the lock turns. The PK sways hugely depending on your adversary and in PvP some of the decent players will be trashing these without too much effort, they had to live with AMRAAM which has a HOJ mode and I had a PK that felt like 5-10% with AMRAAM's in Blue Flag which might be quite high compared to an AI AMRAAM PK around 80%.

 

The plane is what it is, and you make it as close to what it should be as possible. The fact that some folks are looking for a PvP tool is their issue and I would hate to be a developer of a module in a simulator that allows for Player versus Player "Next gen most imba weapon". For some reason, some people expect balancing :)

 

There WILL be some tears here because people will want a full fidelity ASM to be fully competitive against the existing FC3 suite. The end result is that PvP will warp the tactics from what may have been real life to a more competitive tactic set for what the game provides. Thats going to be a low fight in the weeds, heads up, radar off ambush type to nullify BVR advantage. It may be that this airframes main advantage will be the first turn+heater shot.

 

Outside of the competitive bracket (which i hate to see with different class planes) the mission designer is free to equalise these issues as they want to and the problem goes away. Again, up to the mission designer to set the challenge, not the aircraft as is so often touted.

 

As a mission designer we have Mig21 players looking for this extra challenge and I can drop in GCI or take it away and make the challenge completely different again without touching the planes. So really, what i'm saying is, people need to not get hung up on percieved "RELATIVE" capabilities and start loving aviation. Improve your competitive skills, of course, but keep expectations to yourself, ask for FULL ASM server only or design mission content that sets the level of challenge you want.

 

The quality of the module is not judged by it's lethality, by anyone with common sense.

 

Spot on Pikey!:thumbup:

[Cletust8]

Zeus, radar locks breaking, trashing missiles, intercepts below the ground are all normal. It's difficult to give a PK. The in game Sparrow is not do strong at it's max range either. The game simulates the doppler notch fairly consistently so you see that when the lock turns. The PK sways hugely depending on your adversary and in PvP some of the decent players will be trashing these without too much effort, they had to live with AMRAAM which has a HOJ mode and I had a PK that felt like 5-10% with AMRAAM's in Blue Flag which might be quite high compared to an AI AMRAAM PK around 80%.

 

The plane is what it is, and you make it as close to what it should be as possible. The fact that some folks are looking for a PvP tool is their issue and I would hate to be a developer of a module in a simulator that allows for Player versus Player "Next gen most imba weapon". For some reason, some people expect balancing :)

 

There WILL be some tears here because people will want a full fidelity ASM to be fully competitive against the existing FC3 suite. The end result is that PvP will warp the tactics from what may have been real life to a more competitive tactic set for what the game provides. Thats going to be a low fight in the weeds, heads up, radar off ambush type to nullify BVR advantage. It may be that this airframes main advantage will be the first turn+heater shot.

 

Outside of the competitive bracket (which i hate to see with different class planes) the mission designer is free to equalise these issues as they want to and the problem goes away. Again, up to the mission designer to set the challenge, not the aircraft as is so often touted.

 

As a mission designer we have Mig21 players looking for this extra challenge and I can drop in GCI or take it away and make the challenge completely different again without touching the planes. So really, what i'm saying is, people need to not get hung up on percieved "RELATIVE" capabilities and start loving aviation. Improve your competitive skills, of course, but keep expectations to yourself, ask for FULL ASM server only or design mission content that sets the level of challenge you want.

 

The quality of the module is not judged by it's lethality, by anyone with common sense.

 

I couldnt say it better

[Para_Bellum]

Zeus, radar locks breaking, trashing missiles, intercepts below the ground are all normal. It's difficult to give a PK. The in game Sparrow is not do strong at it's max range either. The game simulates the doppler notch fairly consistently so you see that when the lock turns. The PK sways hugely depending on your adversary and in PvP some of the decent players will be trashing these without too much effort, they had to live with AMRAAM which has a HOJ mode and I had a PK that felt like 5-10% with AMRAAM's in Blue Flag which might be quite high compared to an AI AMRAAM PK around 80%.

 

The plane is what it is, and you make it as close to what it should be as possible. The fact that some folks are looking for a PvP tool is their issue and I would hate to be a developer of a module in a simulator that allows for Player versus Player "Next gen most imba weapon". For some reason, some people expect balancing :)

 

There WILL be some tears here because people will want a full fidelity ASM to be fully competitive against the existing FC3 suite. The end result is that PvP will warp the tactics from what may have been real life to a more competitive tactic set for what the game provides. Thats going to be a low fight in the weeds, heads up, radar off ambush type to nullify BVR advantage. It may be that this airframes main advantage will be the first turn+heater shot.

 

Outside of the competitive bracket (which i hate to see with different class planes) the mission designer is free to equalise these issues as they want to and the problem goes away. Again, up to the mission designer to set the challenge, not the aircraft as is so often touted.

 

As a mission designer we have Mig21 players looking for this extra challenge and I can drop in GCI or take it away and make the challenge completely different again without touching the planes. So really, what i'm saying is, people need to not get hung up on percieved "RELATIVE" capabilities and start loving aviation. Improve your competitive skills, of course, but keep expectations to yourself, ask for FULL ASM server only or design mission content that sets the level of challenge you want.

 

The quality of the module is not judged by it's lethality, by anyone with common sense.

 

 

Thank you.

 

:thumbup: