R550 Magic 2 performance

[Ultra]

That all depends on how the atmosphere has been modeled, and the supersonic and subsonic Cd.

 

But drag is not linear by an means.

 

I know it's not linear, the change just seemed extreme.

[cauldron]

the drag-energy problem. Seeker i feel im not qualified to comment on.

[Ultra]

It's funny, in-game the Magic and Sidewinder look like totally different missiles even though it is often said they are very similar in real life.

[sedenion]

hi guys, i wanna verify some things and do simple comparisons, but i have to be sure about some data.

 

In this picture: http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=132210&d=1451997548

 

We are Ok that the "550" is the closing "true" speed... 140 is the "target aspect", but i'm not sure how to interpret this "140°"... is it the target heading in absolute, or a relative heading from the Mirage's heading ? (an absolute heading would makes sense with the given closing speed: target travel almost perpendicular to "us").

 

Another question: does somebody know what is the "big" carret in the DLZ ? Rpi or Ropt or Rtr ?

Edited January 6, 2016 by sedenion

[jojo]

Please define:

Rpi or Ropt or Rtr

[Eddie]

Please define:

 

Rtr = Range Turn and Run (also know as "No Escape" Range).

[sedenion]

Ropt (optimal range) is similar to Raero but leaves the missile with enough energy to maneuver in the terminal phase against a defending target (so-called high termination criteria). So in other words, a shot at this range would be effective against a target that heads directly towards the fighter, then performs defensive maneuvers at the terminal phase.

 

Rpi (probability of intercept) is the same as Ropt but does not require the missile to loft (burn to a higher altitude). A target at this range allows the missile to burn straight ahead towards it.

 

Rtr (turn-and-run) is the maximum range a target can immediately turn and fly the opposite direction and still be reachable by the missile.

[jojo]

Ropt (optimal range) is similar to Raero but leaves the missile with enough energy to maneuver in the terminal phase against a defending target (so-called high termination criteria). So in other words, a shot at this range would be effective against a target that heads directly towards the fighter, then performs defensive maneuvers at the terminal phase.

 

Rpi (probability of intercept) is the same as Ropt but does not require the missile to loft (burn to a higher altitude). A target at this range allows the missile to burn straight ahead towards it.

 

Rtr (turn-and-run) is the maximum range a target can immediately turn and fly the opposite direction and still be reachable by the missile.

 

According to your definition, you should have on picture:

- Rpi

- Rtr

- Rmin

 

But close range Fox 2 don't loft anyway, at least that missile generation.

[sedenion]

Ok, so we can do quite good estimation of the Magic II range...

 

At 23000ft, with 550kt closing true speed, on a target with neutral aspect (travel perpendicularly to "us"), the Magic2 have an Rtr at 4 nm (~7km)...

 

Does anyone have similar data for AIM-9M or R-73 (or i have to do in-game experiments)?

Edited January 6, 2016 by sedenion

[GGTharos]

The closure is NOT 550kt, not even close. That's just the aircraft's speed.

 

If 140 represent the aspect then the bandit's nose is pointed 40 deg away from our plane.

[sedenion]

The closure is NOT 550kt, not even close. That's just the aircraft's speed.

 

It's NOT the aircraft's speed, since, if you look at some video you will clearly see this speed becoming negative... aircraft does not have negative speed, we are ok with that ?... So, this is a closing speed ( as it is currently modeled in the Razbam's module )

 

If 140 represent the aspect then the bandit's nose is pointed 40 deg away from our plane.

 

If 140 is the heading of the target (which seem logical), the bandit's nose is pointed ~90° away form our plane, and, in this configuration: ALL is logical: Indicated Airspeed (370kt), Mach Number (0.84) and closing "true" speed (550kt, as reported by the doppler)... Even the anticipation heading of the mirage's pilot from target expected trajectory...

 

(i am very sorry to use some logics, mathematics and common sens)

Edited January 6, 2016 by sedenion

[jojo]

Check PM Sedenion...

[GGTharos]

It's NOT the aircraft's speed, since, if you look at some video you will clearly see this speed becoming negative...

 

Where? I didn't see that.

 

If 140 is the heading of the target (which seem logical), the bandit's nose is pointed ~90° away form our plane, and, in this configuration: ALL is logical: Indicated Airspeed (370kt), Mach Number (0.84) and closing "true" speed (550kt, as reported by the doppler)... Even the anticipation heading of the mirage's pilot from target expected trajectory...

Then an Rmax of 8nm seems kinda far for this type of missile.

 

The 'window' with the speed display is either own TAS or target TAS, it isn't closure.

 

You can roughly compute closure from timing how quickly the distance decreases, and I came up with 840kts ... so if the aspect is 140, we take sin(40)*840, we get close to 550, and an Rmax of 8nm seems more likely.

 

So, sorry for using some logics, mathematics and common sense, too.

Edited January 6, 2016 by GGTharos

[sedenion]

Where? I didn't see that.

 

Here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2631483&postcount=187

check video between 0:57 and 1:05

 

Then an Rmax of 8nm seems kinda far for this type of missile.

 

This is the claimed max range of the Magic2 : 15km... nothing extraordinary here, the claimed max range of the AIM-9M is 18km as far as i know.

 

The 'window' with the speed display is either own TAS or target TAS, it isn't closure.

 

This is the closure... check video.

Edited January 6, 2016 by sedenion

[jojo]

The window next to DLZ is CAS closure speed.

 

Top left Mirage's speed is CAS too.

 

Below the double circle is aspect angle, 180 being head one aspect.

[sedenion]

Top left Mirage's speed is CAS too.

 

note: Currently, the top left speed in Razbam's Module is the IAS... you sure the top left speed is CAS ?

[GGTharos]

Here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2631483&postcount=187

check video between 0:57 and 1:05

 

Looks like a different variant, and I've seen indication change just from upgrades to the same AC. Indications can even change just by changing the radar mode - in some cases, within the same mode you can change indications by choosing an intercept vs other selection.

 

This is the claimed max range of the Magic2 : 15km... nothing extraordinary here, the claimed max range of the AIM-9M is 18km as far as i know.

You're not getting 8nm range out of a sidewinder at 20000' with a 90deg aspect. The 18km range is at 30000' and it's head-on.

 

This is the closure... check video.

Doesn't agree with my measurement which is consistently higher than what this window indicates. It's possible the the video itself is sped up though, or that the readings are just not accurate enough.

 

Finally, in that same video you posted, look at 2:45. The number under the circles very clearly shows aspect, not heading; in which case the closure cannot be 550kts unless that aircraft is standing still.

Edited January 6, 2016 by GGTharos

[Fox One]

It's not. The frequency of the blinking "MAG" is the same as in other videos.

 

It's possible the the video itself is sped up

[Fox One]

Accurate measurements on the video: the distance is decreasing 0.6NM in precisely 2.72s. This gives an average closure of 794KTAS.

[sedenion]

Looks like a different variant, and I've seen indication change just from upgrades to the same AC. Indications can even change just by changing the radar mode - in some cases, within the same mode you can change indications by choosing an intercept vs other selection.

 

( En voilà un qui va nous donner du fil à retordre...) Yes and maybe NOT, and maybe this is always the closure speed, computed by the doppler...

 

You're not getting 8nm range out of a sidewinder at 20000' with a 90deg aspect. The 18km range is at 30000' and it's head-on.

 

... (zen)... however, what is really intersting here, is not the optimal maximum range of 8nm, but the Rtr range at 4nm... according target aspect and closing speed...

 

Finally, in that same video you posted, look at 2:45. The number under the circles very clearly shows aspect, not heading; in which case the closure cannot be 550kts unless that aircraft is standing still.

 

Ok with that. i made a mistake...

[sedenion]

Bon, je jette l'éponge, si quelqu'un veut prendre le relais... ça vire à l'enculage de mouche généralisé là...

[GGTharos]

... (zen)... however, what is really intersting here, is not the optimal maximum range of 8nm, but the Rtr range at 4nm... according target aspect and closing speed...

 

Think missile flight time vs. time for turning around. Side-on Rtr is shorter because the time to put the missile on your six is shorter.

 

FYI some of us can read french just fine.

[sedenion]

Think missile flight time vs. time for turning around. Side-on Rtr is shorter because the time to put the missile on your six is shorter.

 

Thanks, i know that...

 

FYI some of us can read french just fine.

 

tant mieux...

[Corsair]

The closure is NOT 550kt, not even close. That's just the aircraft's speed.

 

If 140 represent the aspect then the bandit's nose is pointed 40 deg away from our plane.

 

Vitesse de rapprochement de la cible

 

...

[GGTharos]

Then he's shooting some sort of parachuting target - in any case, it doesn't correspond to range decrease measurement.

Also the long dash does not seem to suggest Rtr, just some sort of good shot parameters?

 

I'll also point out some other differences:

 

The range is not shown beside the range caret

The missile TOF is not shown in the HuD video

Edited January 6, 2016 by GGTharos