Supah Frog!

[Kenan]

 

Check that red missile on the far right..:cheer3nc:

[GGTharos]

Yep, Su-25TM ... but they'll never carry them operationally when they're better used onboard fighters ... it would be like an A-10 carrying an AIM-120 ;)

[Force_Feedback]

The Su-39 CAN carry the R-27(E)R, and the R-77 on those pylons in combat situations.

[Groove]

what is the thing under the belly ?

[Alfa]

what is the thing under the belly ?

 

It is the "Kopyo-25" multifunctional radar - the reason why the Su-25TM can deploy radar guided weapons :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Pilotasso]

I swear I once seen an A-10 with AIM-54C. Thats why they didnt need a radar. the missile would provide a poors man radar system :)

[169th_Dredd]

Red R-77 right? Yeaah baby..

 

 

[Force_Feedback]

Red R-77 right? Yeaah baby..

 

 

Flight test dummies, not to be confused with weapon models, as the red ones weigh and have the same drag as the real one, they only lack a warhead and possible all the electronics (if it's a drop test dummy). The red ones are sometimes used in test firings, this can be seen with a mig-29 launching a R-27R, which is more agile directly after launch than in lomac. The real thing pitched up with an immense pitch rate before the motor started its burn.

[chennuts]

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time I've seen a frog (T/TM) with Vikhrs loaded on the middle wing pylon, as opposed to the 2nd innermost wing pylon (which is all that is allowed by default in Lock On). Can anyone clarify as to where the Vikhr is normally carried and also where it can be carried and fired from?

[Maverick-90]

the -25TM(-39) can carry them on 3,4,8 and 9

the -25T only on 4 and 8

[Shaman]

It is the "Kopyo-25" multifunctional radar - the reason why the Su-25TM can deploy radar guided weapons :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

It uses that pod to lock and fire R-77 ? I thought it's A2G radar only.

[pschelchshorn]

I swear I once seen an A-10 with AIM-54C. Thats why they didnt need a radar. the missile would provide a poors man radar system :)

 

rofl :doh:

[Force_Feedback]

It uses that pod to lock and fire R-77 ? I thought it's A2G radar only.

 

It's a multipurpose radar, the phased array version even does the two things simultaneousely, and can attack both air and ground targets at once.

[Weta43]

"Yep, Su-25TM ... but they'll never carry them operationally when they're better used onboard fighters ... it would be like an A-10 carrying an AIM-120"

 

 

Might give somebody a nasty surprise if they did though :-)

 

Seriously though - you could say the same of any missile - they'd be better used on a fighter - but if you're going to give them a missile for self defence, you may as well give them a good one (if you can afford them - which is a maybe for Russia at the moment, & the weapons control system can run them).

 

("& for your flight today would you prefer we fit R-60M or R-73 on your Su-25T today Sir?" (or an R-77 & an R-73 on your TM?) - given the choice which would you fly with? Even the idea of it might persuade an attacker to not wait till you're dead in the sweet of the NEZ before firing.)

[GGTharos]

The USAF can certainly afford to give the A-10 new engines, a radar, and AMRAAMs. Have they? :)

 

It's simply not very useful for these aircraft to carry this particular type of instrumentation - it's just another thing that'll get busted flying CAS.

 

Similarely, the Su-25TM will be expected to fly under fighter cover - what's the point of even -giving- the pilots a reason to -think- they can do something they haven't been trained for? They're more likely to shoot their own fighters up the ass than shooting down an enemy fighter.

 

At the same time, they've also reduced their AG payload by two pylons, and they might now have delusions of air to air grandeur and might be paying a touch too much attention to AA things instead of AG things ... ;D

[Weta43]

Sorry - I thought the difference was that the Su-25TM already had a radar that was capable of detecting and launching the R-77 at BVR ranges ("the "Kopyo-25" multifunctional radar - the reason why the Su-25TM can deploy radar guided weapons"), whereas the A-10 lacked such a radar.

Was I wrong ?

Again - the argument you use is a general argument against mud movers carrying anything by way of A2A missiles as self defence & they obviously do - So either you're right, or the guys who design & build the planes are - & if you're going to carry them, you may as well carry the most lethal 'self defence' you can.

 

They may have reduced their AG payload by 2 pylons (although they are the same pylons they use for the R-73 - are they also "never used operationally"), but my understanding of the situation is that it would be very unlikely that you would hang every bit of ordinance off the plane that you could in a real mission anyway - that loading the plane the way it is in that photo is more likely to happen at airshows than in a war.

[GGTharos]

So what if the 25TM already has a radar? You can stick a radar on anything. The 25TM is optimized for ground-attack, not for any sort of air to air combat (more like air to air bufoonery if you try it in a 25)

 

The Kopyo's radar antenna is, IIRC, even smaller than that of the F-16's. Not particularely great of AA ;) 'BVR'? In what respect? Even an F-16 will out-perform it radar wise as much as an F-15 outperforms an F-16 radar-wise. And forget about it against something like an F-15 ... it'll have that TM on radar and there'll be a missile on the way before the 25TM pilot will even see the 15 on /his/ radar.

 

So tell me again why you'd stick the 77 on an aircraft that /can't/ actually prosecute a BVR fight, instead of on one that can ... you can just stick R-73's or R-74's on the TM, they're fairly lethal, cheaper, and appropriate.

[Weta43]

“Similarly, the Su-25TM will be expected to fly under fighter cover - what's the point of even -giving- the pilots a reason to -think- they can do something they haven't been trained for? They're more likely to shoot their own fighters up the ass than shooting down an enemy fighter. “

 

Exactly the same statement could be made if you were to substitute A-10 for Su-25TM & AGAIN you are arguing for taking all AA missiles off anything not an air to air fighter. Yet the designers insist on doing so – and upon putting the best missile that the plane can carry onto the plane…

 

“So tell me again why you'd stick the 77 on an aircraft that /can't/ actually prosecute a BVR fight, instead of on one that can ... you can just stick R-73's or R-74's on the TM, they're fairly lethal, cheaper, and appropriate.”

 

Now why would you do that?

 

Perhaps because the R-73 has a range of 15km, is affected by clouds & needs the pilot to actually spot the target before launch, where the R-77 has a range of 50km, is all weather & the pilot can rely on the radar to help find the target?

 

”The Kopyo's radar antenna is, IIRC, even smaller than that of the F-16's. Not particularely great of AA 'BVR'? In what respect? Even an F-16 will out-perform it radar wise as much as an F-15 outperforms an F-16 radar-wise. And forget about it against something like an F-15 ... it'll have that TM on radar and there'll be a missile on the way before the 25TM pilot will even see the 15 on /his/ radar.”

 

Much the same as the as the F-16 is to the F-15 and perhaps as the F-5 is to the F-16?

It looks to me like the Kopyo’s radar antennae is probably not all that different in diameter from the F-5’s – are you suggesting that because the F-5 has such a limited BVR capability they should also just stick to IR missiles & leave the radar off? Perhaps it’s worth noting though that a number of countries have fitted out F-5E’s to carry AIM-120’s, but go figure.

 

I don’t know how far an F-15 would be detected at with the Kopyu but if we’re conservative & say that the best you could get was to detect an F-15 at 30 km, you’ve still roughly doubled the range at which you can launch at your opponent & that he has to launch at you or be at risk of you launching back - & you’re now launching at something around the NEZ of your missile not it’s absolute maximum range (- in fact where you can launch is about where your opponent would have preferred to launch when all you had was R-60M or R-73) & you can do so in any weather and at night…

 

Don’t forget that this also gives the option of taking out helicopters in all weather, visibility from at least double the range of the R-73.

 

As an actual question - Maybe a poll to readers of the thread? Assuming you’re going out on a CAS flight with 16 Vikhr-m.

Would you rather have, by way of self-defence, 2*R-60M & Mk1 eyeball, 2*R-73 & Mk1 eyeball, 2*R-77 & Mk1 eyeball & a radar, or & Mk1 eyeball, a radar, 1*R-73 &1*R-77.

[GGTharos]

Okay, let me try this again: You detect the F-15 at 30km. The AMRAAM's already on its way to you by then. Your manage to track the F-15 in a few more seconds and launch.

 

Congratulations, you stayed too long. Boom. The F-15 on the other hand, can power away from your own missile. That's the problem with not being able to prosecute the BVR fight, and not having good acceleration, and trying to pretend to be doing BVR AA combat at the same time.

 

The F-5's will have the exact same problem if they're faced with anything from the flanker family, but at least they -can- maneuver -and- prosecute an AA fight. The Frog CANNOT. Should be pretty clear ;)

[Weta43]

OK - let me try again too :-)

It's not about having a choice about whether to look for a fight with an F-15. Forget about going looking for an F-15. Only someone with a deathwish is actually going to go looking for one in a Su-25(anything). It isn't necessary to set up straw men to work the argument - no-one is suggesting the Su-25TM is a fighter.

But, when you're in the hills doing your CAS flight & an F-15 stumbles across you - would you rather have something that forced him to fire from somewhere at the edge of his missiles sweetzone - or let him come in till you are on the short side of the NEZ??? - or are you suggesting the pilot just bail?

 

I'll ask again - specifically at you this time GG - if you were a pilot in an Su-25TM - who'd dropped their load & was on their way home when an F-15 stumbled across them amongst the hills on a cloudy day - given the option of a Kopyo & 2*R-60M, a Kopyo & 2*R-73, a Kopyo & 2*R-77, or a Kopyo and a mix of an R-77 & an R-73 - which would you want to carry?