Mig-21bis is now faster then Mirage-2000C In 2.0

[spiddx]

Reaching 2.2 at 41k here too.

 

You got a track maybe?

[ttaylor0024]

I just flew up to 70,000 feet and dove down to accelerate to mach 2.21 I was at 43,000 feet and I started to decelerate to 2.07 mach

 

I don't know what kind of fuel you guys are using I obviously can't reproduce those kind of numbers that you guys are on about.

 

Just do freeflight takeoff and you should be able to easily get it. If not, something's wrong with your setup... Maybe check that you're getting full axis movement in your throttle

[Sarge55]

I did the instant action ramp start and once I was airborne dropped the tanks but kept the Magic II's. I was able to hit M 2.18 with missiles at 42,000 Ft.

[Rlaxoxo]

Alright I'll give it a shot

 

EDIT:

 

Alright ... I tried the Instant action "Take Off"

 

My rudder was always going left for some reason but whatever

 

I took off and at low altitude I was going 1210 Kph - 800 meters (IAS) instead of 1140 so that's odd

 

At high altitude however my max speed was Mach 2.07 I could not get faster

 

I tried 35k feet and 45k feet as you see in the following pictures

 

 

Edited January 16, 2016 by Rlaxoxo

[ttaylor0024]

Alright I'll give it a shot

 

EDIT:

 

Alright ... I tried the Instant action "Take Off"

 

My rudder was always going left for some reason but whatever

 

I took off and at low altitude I was going 1210 Kph - 800 meters (IAS) instead of 1140 so that's odd

 

At high altitude however my max speed was Mach 2.07 I could not get faster

 

I tried 35k feet and 45k feet as you see in the following pictures

 

 

Don't want to sound condescending, but how long did you have the aircraft level? It takes a very long time to accelerate to 2.2 now, which is accurate.

[Rlaxoxo]

Don't want to sound condescending, but how long did you have the aircraft level? It takes a very long time to accelerate to 2.2 now, which is accurate.

 

Hmm I'd say about 4 - 6 minutes somewhere around there the mach number didn't move past 2.07

 

I'm suppose to fly for 30 minutes?

[ttaylor0024]

Hmm I'd say about 4 - 6 minutes somewhere around there the mach number didn't move past 2.07

 

I'm suppose to fly for 30 minutes?

 

Nah, it should be faster than that. Interesting that you're system is different than ours. I'd suggest checking your axis and making sure your throttle is going all they way forward (which the fuel burn on the pictures look like they are), but otherwise I'm stumped.

[Rlaxoxo]

Nah, it should be faster than that. Interesting that you're system is different than ours. I'd suggest checking your axis and making sure your throttle is going all they way forward (which the fuel burn on the pictures look like they are), but otherwise I'm stumped.

 

That's why I'm so confused I'm gonna try reinstalling the module tomorrow see if that helps or whatever

[TomCatMucDe]

i m reaching 2.2 as well. Post a track that would be the best.

[gospadin]

I am seeing what Rlaxoxo sees. In level flight, if I never have a dive component, I cannot get past 2.07 before running out of fuel.

 

However, if I climb to about 53,000', fly level and get to about mach 1.6, then start a 3-4 degree dive, I can easily go faster than 2.2 at 40,000 feet. In the below screenshot, I leveled out at 2.20 and continued accelerating (slowly) as my fuel ran out around mach 2.26 or so.

 

 

Without that 3-4 degree dive, it doesn't have the oomph. This was attempting to fly at 48,000 which should have been close to the optimal altitude.

[gospadin]

FWIW, I can easily cross 2.25 at 40,000'. Just doesn't seem possible at 47,000' or 35,000'.

 

The point at which I start going slower in mach, even as I accelerate in a 5 degree dive, is around 37,000'.

[ttaylor0024]

I am seeing what Rlaxoxo sees. In level flight, if I never have a dive component, I cannot get past 2.07 before running out of fuel.

 

However, if I climb to about 53,000', fly level and get to about mach 1.6, then start a 3-4 degree dive, I can easily go faster than 2.2 at 40,000 feet. In the below screenshot, I leveled out at 2.20 and continued accelerating (slowly) as my fuel ran out around mach 2.26 or so.

 

http://i.imgur.com/xl9Qiaa.jpg

 

Without that 3-4 degree dive, it doesn't have the oomph. This was attempting to fly at 48,000 which should have been close to the optimal altitude.

 

I didn't have to dive at all, as a matter of fact I had alt hold enabled the entire time.

[cauldron]

We are all dancing about a single data point which is max speed clean in the 40k foot range, even probably at 50% fuel or less. This really should not be much discussion except for a detail.

 

The plane Clean at 9t GW should make M2.2 structural limit {according to dev MACH2.2 limit imposed by "dynamic drag" which i have no idea what that is}

 

So the fact that the flight envelope is so severely truncated for clean 9t GW should be an indicator of how easily it should reach M2.2 at optimum MACH altitude which is 40k feet.

 

So for Clean 9t GW and M2.2:

1. We should be able to accel to in level flight from 54kfeet down to 31k feet.

2. At 30k feet it should top out at M2.16

3. 55k feet it should top out at M1.7

4. at 57k feet M1.5 to M1.6

 

5. For lower altitudes:

25k feet M1.9

20k feet M1.7

15k feet M1.55

10k feet M1.42

5k feet M1.34

sea level M1.26 { but not from level flight, must come from a dive and stabilize, as it should have trouble crossing the M1.1 barrier.}

 

6. Do this with the editor to get 9tGW and set infinite fuel. test ALL the data points to come up with a picture. It is clear that it struggles to get to M2.2 clean and light, but how much? you won't be able to tell unless you explore the flight envelope more. A severely truncated top speed for structural/flutter/intake MACH exceedance / etc. reasons should tip you off that tests to prove it "can make it" to M2.2 are irrelevant unless it is grossly in error. I have tested it and it cannot Make it to M2.2 clean and low fuel unless near the 40k's foot mark where it does "make it" how fast should it make we don't know, that's the point.

 

 

7. BTW this is for 9tGW and clean. it should make MACH2.2 as well for 9.4t + 2x magics between 34k feet and 51k feet.

 

8. It should make M2.1 at 40k feet to 43k feet at 10tGW+2xmagics+4x micas[which each[mica] havesame drag for these curves as the 530D] so it should actually exceed these values - by an unknown amount.

 

9. it should ALSO EXCEED in similar fashion at 40k feet 10.5tGW+2magics+4micas+center-drop tank[with fuel ;) ] MACH1.78

 

then we can START talking a bit better about what happened. IMO the most important data points are the "corners" where the plane aerodynamically is limited to just barely UNDER M2.2 and the heavier loads, if the plane matches those we can assume 40k feet clean performance has been meet as we have no data as reference for testing to the M2.2 limit other than "making it there"

 

So PLEASE go an explore the playground that has been made for us, if you have been given a ranch to "play in" why stay in the same spot all the time and not explore the boundaries???

 

:joystick::pilotfly:

Edited January 17, 2016 by cauldron
ty[pos

[jojo]

Topolo did an outstanding job. I know because I'm following it since the very beginning more than 10 years ago.

 

But this is estimations. So there is no point being picky up to M0.0X, especially with external loads.

 

Effect of external loads and pylons are difficult to assess.

 

Test are useful but please don't fight if you lack M0.02 of top speed :smilewink:

[cauldron]

Jojo, I'm sure you agree to the point i was making. I would be really happy if this was actually about missing M.002.... really. It would mean we've already arrived at a good base and are being "picky" But lets not cross that bridge until it actually happens. My marks are goals to set for testing. You want me to set error bars? i think not.

 

The point still stands... we need more and better data points that are more relevant and more tests. All i did was set the stage for that. Hopefully you could also participate :smilewink:

[jojo]

This was not a critic toward anyone, merely a "heads up".

 

Clean aircraft top speed is one thing. I have to cross check with Topolo the nature of the limit:

- aerodynamic (the plane can't accelerate faster)

- heat (the plane will melt windshield or probes if faster)

 

Speed limit with loads are even more complicated to estimate. Moreover most of the time safety margin are applied and operational limits are enforced.

 

If you read operational limit as aerodynamic limit you will penalize acceleration.

otherwise pilot will have to throttle down to respect limit.

[cauldron]

Cool! :thumbup: Thanks for that.

[Hook47]

That's why I'm so confused I'm gonna try reinstalling the module tomorrow see if that helps or whatever

 

Any luck? I too am able to hit the Mach 2.2 in the mirage with no issue. Did you check your throttle axis in Windows Game Controllers? I had one go bad one time by limiting the axis.

 

 

After some reading around and testing I find your first posts screen shots of the low altitude airspeeds to be pretty spot on, as surpringly the MiG 21bis is reported to be significantly faster than the M2000C at sea level, but that flips at altitude. I think the MPH for both is sea level is 800ish for the mig and 690 for the M2000.

[jojo]

From the Mirage 2000 chart, at sea level:

- VNE = 750kt CAS

- capable to reach around 800kt CAS.

[Rlaxoxo]

Any luck? I too am able to hit the Mach 2.2 in the mirage with no issue. Did you check your throttle axis in Windows Game Controllers? I had one go bad one time by limiting the axis.

 

 

After some reading around and testing I find your first posts screen shots of the low altitude airspeeds to be pretty spot on, as surpringly the MiG 21bis is reported to be significantly faster than the M2000C at sea level, but that flips at altitude. I think the MPH for both is sea level is 800ish for the mig and 690 for the M2000.

 

Was tired and really frustrated So i called it quits for the night I haven't entered the game since

 

I'll try to reinstall the module tonight and try it out see what happens

[gospadin]

Was tired and really frustrated So i called it quits for the night I haven't entered the game since

 

I'll try to reinstall the module tonight and try it out see what happens

 

I went back and looked, and everyone reporting hitting 2.2 are doing it between 39,000' and 42,000'. Please retry at 40,000' and see if you can get going faster. Your high altitude tests were either significantly above or significantly below this altitude.

 

--gos

[Rlaxoxo]

Looks like my Mirage update installation missed something cus after I removed the module an installed it again I climbed up to 40k feet

 

And I was able to hit mach 2.24

 

Which is nice but weird thing Is I can't hit mach 2.2 if I go above or below that altitude

 

For example

 

Here I dove down going mach 2.24 from 40k feet to 36k feet and I slowed down to Mach 2.07

 

________

Looking at this Graph I should maintain Mach 2.2 from 53.5k to 34k feet

 

But I can't reproduce that anyone else having any luck?

[Sarge55]

I was just noticing that we've all seemed to have re-installed the module at some point to fix small inconsistencies. I wonder it the the updater is borked and some of the reported bugs are a result of that.

[gospadin]

No. I just believe there are more altitude-sensitivities in-game than in that chart.

 

It's much closer than it was before, and obviously will undergo more tuning.

[cauldron]

:thumbup: