Rare Loadouts

[BlackLion213]

And thats where the Cats'll slap them in the merge, too!

 

:megalol:

 

Yeah, if you were to pick a place NOT to fight against the F-14, it would be down low - especially below 5000'.

 

I've heard that a lot of MP players like to hang down at low altitude. I think many players may be surprised to see what the F-14A can do down there. Those TF30s make excellent thrust below 10,000'! :D

 

-Nick

[Cool Breeze]

no fun allowed :(

 

(i wanna shoot the hawk)

Plenty of modders out there just look at the AIM-54s on the F-15s! must because it's not released with it doesn't mean it's not able to be added later by someone...... to an extent.

[Hummingbird]

Yeah, if you were to pick a place NOT to fight against the F-14, it would be down low - especially below 5000'.

 

I've heard that a lot of MP players like to hang down at low altitude. I think many players may be surprised to see what the F-14A can do down there. Those TF30s make excellent thrust below 10,000'! :D

 

-Nick

 

Yeah I'm not sure what aircraft will stand toe to toe with the F-14 below 10,000, esp. as speed is traded for angles. Probably going to be reminicent of F-14 vs F-18 fights = if the F-18 doesn't get the shot right after the first 180 then he's toast.

[dekiplav]

Yeah I'm not sure what aircraft will stand toe to toe with the F-14 below 10,000, esp. as speed is traded for angles. Probably going to be reminicent of F-14 vs F-18 fights = if the F-18 doesn't get the shot right after the first 180 then he's toast.

 

How about versus a Su-27/33. Is there any part of the flight envelope that a Tomcat has an advantage?:dunno: Against F-15 it is a 50/50 situation, as captain_dalan showed a couple a months ago in his charts, but against another great slow speed turning aircraft that has plenty of gas, unlike F-16/18 and MiG-29 :music_whistling:. Something tels me that the Flanker would be a Tomcat worst nightmare in WVR arena :D.

Edited January 29, 2016 by dekiplav

[BlackLion213]

Something tels me that the Flanker would be a Tomcat worst nightmare in WVR arena :D.

 

Doubt it, Tomcats don't have dreams....being machines and everything. ;)

 

I think the real nightmare is realizing that the opposing pilot really knows what he is doing.

 

How about versus a Su-27/33. Is there any part of the flight envelope that a Tomcat has an advantage?:dunno:

 

I'm also not sure, but I think it would be a really interesting match-up. The Tomcat (Bs and Ds) and Flankers are remarkably similar. Same basic operating weight, nearly identical thrust, similar wing area, and large lifting area in the fuselage. IF (big if, pardon the pun) the F-14B gets DFCS, then things get even closer.

 

Can't wait to try it out. :D

 

-Nick

[Hummingbird]

How about versus a Su-27/33. Is there any part of the flight envelope that a Tomcat has an advantage?:dunno: Against F-15 it is a 50/50 situation, as captain_dalan showed a couple a months ago in his charts,

 

Against the F-15 the F-14 has the advantage in STR all the way up to Mach 0.74, add to this a tighter turn radius and superior ITR across the board. So down low is not where you want to fight against an F-14 in the Eagle.

 

 

but against another great slow speed turning aircraft that has plenty of gas, unlike F-16/18 and MiG-29 :music_whistling:. Something tels me that the Flanker would be a Tomcat worst nightmare in WVR arena :D.

 

I'm not so sure, I think the F-14 will be quite the nightmare for the Flanker as well, esp. if the fight gets real low & slow.

[captain_dalan]

 

I think the real nightmare is realizing that the opposing pilot really knows what he is doing.

 

 

This. Always this. No plane has absolute advantages across the entire range of the envelope, so the worse enemy of every pilot besides an opponent that knows what he's doing is out own overconfidence..... or better yet, not knowing our own capabilities.

[dekiplav]

I know it is too early to talk about from what I am about to ask, because the Tomcat isn't going to be ready anytime soon and we can't actually try an fight against a Su-27 in DCS, but can anyone guess what would be the best tactics that the Tomcat pilot could apply against Su-27. I mean from what I understood so far, against F-15 you try to fly low and slow, against F-18 you try make him lose energy, then take the fight in to the vertical, clean F-16/MiG-29 are tricky but if you prolong/survive long enough by superb flying they'll be out of fuel, or to get them in a slow turning fight, but versus a Su-27 I cant think of nothing except taking advantage of pilot error. This is just my opinion I'm not stating this as a fact. Many find this boring and childish but I just cant get enough about F-14 vs X WVR arena :D.

[King_Hrothgar]

This is how it will go down 95% of the time in MP:

 

1) F-14 fires AIM-54, AIM-54 misses.

2) Su-27 fires R-27ER and F-14 fires a second AIM-54, both miss

3) Su-27 fires another R-27ER + R-27ET, F-14 fires a third AIM-54. All 3 missiles miss.

4) Su-27 fires R-27ET WVR head on, F-14A fires AIM-9 head on, both miss.

5) Su-27 takes a high off boresight shot with the R-73 going into the merge, missile may or may not hit.

6) Assuming the R-73 misses, fight will go to the better pilot. Until we actually have the modules, I do not think it is possible to determine if one or the other has an advantage. We're just going to have to try it.

[Kayos]

This is how it will go down 95% of the time in MP:

 

1) F-14 fires AIM-54, AIM-54 misses.

2) Su-27 fires R-27ER and F-14 fires a second AIM-54, both miss

3) Su-27 fires another R-27ER + R-27ET, F-14 fires a third AIM-54. All 3 missiles miss.

4) Su-27 fires R-27ET WVR head on, F-14A fires AIM-9 head on, both miss.

5) Su-27 takes a high off boresight shot with the R-73 going into the merge, missile may or may not hit.

6) Assuming the R-73 misses, fight will go to the better pilot. Until we actually have the modules, I do not think it is possible to determine if one or the other has an advantage. We're just going to have to try it.

 

Depends if they ever fix missiles I guess.

[Tirak]

This is how it will go down 95% of the time in MP:

 

1) F-14 fires AIM-54, AIM-54 misses.

2) Su-27 fires R-27ER and F-14 fires a second AIM-54, both miss

3) Su-27 fires another R-27ER + R-27ET, F-14 fires a third AIM-54. All 3 missiles miss.

4) Su-27 fires R-27ET WVR head on, F-14A fires AIM-9 head on, both miss.

5) Su-27 takes a high off boresight shot with the R-73 going into the merge, missile may or may not hit.

6) Assuming the R-73 misses, fight will go to the better pilot. Until we actually have the modules, I do not think it is possible to determine if one or the other has an advantage. We're just going to have to try it.

 

Nope, it'll be:

 

1) F-14 detects Su-27 at 120nm.

2) F-14 fires AIM-54C (ECCM) at 80nm

3) 8nm from target AIM-54C (ECCM) goes pitbull, activating its onboard radar. It is at this moment that the Su-27 first knows he's been fired on.

4) At Mach 5, the missile covers that distance in... an eighth of a second...

5) One week after release, all major servers ban AIM-54C (ECCM) usage and the F-14 becomes a lawnmower because with AIM-7s it simply cannot play the BVR game.

[Hummingbird]

Remember there's the F-14B to contend with as well, and if it comes with the later digital flight control system then the F-14B will be an absolute nightmare for most fighters in a WVR situation, esp. as most angles fights don't take place over Mach 0.7.

 

Against the Su-27 it's a tough call who would win a WVR fight, few aircraft possess the STR of the F-14 up to Mach 0.75, and the F-14 also has a very high ITR and pitch rate - one the Su-27 will have to disengage its SAS to beat.

 

PS: Another interesting fight will be a clean F-18C (i.e. only 4x missiles) vs the Su-27, the F-18 has perhaps the highest pitch rate of any modern fighter and its STR is much higher than what some believe. (It'll do 9.5 deg/sec STR @ 15 kft with three fuel bags!)

[GGTharos]

No TWS against a fighter further than 50nm or a bomber further than 90nm.

 

The missile won't be anywhere near mach 5 at terminal intercept, and it won't even reach mach 5 unless you launch it as mach 2.

 

In the end, the rwr will warn the flanker pilot that there's a 14 in the area and he'll take appropriate measures.

 

Nope, it'll be:

 

1) F-14 detects Su-27 at 120nm.

2) F-14 fires AIM-54C (ECCM) at 80nm

3) 8nm from target AIM-54C (ECCM) goes pitbull, activating its onboard radar. It is at this moment that the Su-27 first knows he's been fired on.

4) At Mach 5, the missile covers that distance in... an eighth of a second...

5) One week after release, all major servers ban AIM-54C (ECCM) usage and the F-14 becomes a lawnmower because with AIM-7s it simply cannot play the BVR game.

[Nerd1000]

Nope, it'll be:

 

1) F-14 detects Su-27 at 120nm.

2) F-14 fires AIM-54C (ECCM) at 80nm

3) 8nm from target AIM-54C (ECCM) goes pitbull, activating its onboard radar. It is at this moment that the Su-27 first knows he's been fired on.

4) At Mach 5, the missile covers that distance in... an eighth of a second...

5) One week after release, all major servers ban AIM-54C (ECCM) usage and the F-14 becomes a lawnmower because with AIM-7s it simply cannot play the BVR game.

 

At 1700m/s the missile will cover 14.4km in a little over 8 seconds, not 1/8 of a second. This ignores the fact that the AIM-54C will not be traveling at mach 5 after its motor burns out.

[Tirak]

No TWS against a fighter further than 50nm or a bomber further than 90nm.

 

The missile won't be anywhere near mach 5 at terminal intercept, and it won't even reach mach 5 unless you launch it as mach 2.

 

In the end, the rwr will warn the flanker pilot that there's a 14 in the area and he'll take appropriate measures.

 

Said appropriate measures being... either the Iraqi approach, which is turn tail and run, or dive low and hope a missile designed for top down attack misses you in the clutter?

 

A long range shot with the Phoenix C isn't going to be picked up on their RWR, which means they have no idea when they've actually been fired on, until frankly it's too late. That's going to be the real kicker, it's that you won't know it's coming until it gets there.

[GGTharos]

It WILL miss you in the clutter if done right. There's no if.

 

They need try know they're being fired upon about as much as current flanker pilot in dcs need to know. They know there's a missile coming in guided via TWS, they don't need the warning.

[Tirak]

If done right, any evasion scheme can beat just about any weapon.

 

The ranges that the 54C work at, and what the current DCS modeled 120s work at, are completely different. AMRAAMs are lucky to hit inside of 12nm, this thing is launching at 50-80. So the moment an Su-27 sees a tomcat, and runs for the deck, he's sacrificing SA, he's sacrificing energy by giving up altitude, and he's placing himself in a vulnerable position to be pressed on, and he doesn't even know if the tomcat's taken a shot at him.

[Cik]

not really, in any sort of MP environment the flanker RWR is pretty worthless at telling you the specific threats.

 

in this case, you won't know it's an F-14 until pitbull unless you have perfect SA and know that there's no eagle in range to AMRAAM you.

 

in any case, it's going to be silly esp. if the missile is modeled correctly (and all of the other missiles are not) considering it's capabilities are, well, quite high.

 

i just hope that the active version of the phoenix is banned if it's as bad as it should be, it's going to be absurd assuming it's capable of hitting the enemy.

[Golo]

The MiG-21bis against F-15s with amraams is equaly absurd and F-15s are dying every day.

Do they ban amraams?

[Cik]

the AMRAAM, while on it's own level, is not nearly as on it's own level as that thing.

 

in fact, it'll be so good and will rule by such a margin that it will make every other BVR platform entirely obsolete.

[Tirak]

i just hope that the active version of the phoenix is banned if it's as bad as it should be, it's going to be absurd assuming it's capable of hitting the enemy.

 

And this ladies and gents, is why we can't have nice things, because of players like this.

[Eihort]

Since I'm late to the party...

 

Everything I read about that HAWK on an F-14 the Iranians tried says they abandoned it very quickly. While they got it to work, the launch envelope was so restrictive it was useless. Supposedly you have to be below 5k and the target over 15k.

[Hummingbird]

Amraam:

 

 

I can't help but shake my head everytime I think about how much the Navy lost in capability when Dick Cheney (fitting first name!) decided to scrap the F-14 :disgust:

 

The thing would've been able to carry 4x AIM-120's + 2x AIM-9's + 4x AIM-54's + 2x external fuel bags all at the same time. Talk about an effective fleet defense!

 

With an upgraded electronics package I don't see any current fighter that could accomplish the same task as effectively..... and then to think that it got retired?! Ugh...

Edited January 30, 2016 by Hummingbird

[King_Hrothgar]

Said appropriate measures being... either the Iraqi approach, which is turn tail and run, or dive low and hope a missile designed for top down attack misses you in the clutter?

 

A long range shot with the Phoenix C isn't going to be picked up on their RWR, which means they have no idea when they've actually been fired on, until frankly it's too late. That's going to be the real kicker, it's that you won't know it's coming until it gets there.

 

It doesn't need to be detected. When flying the Su-27, I have no clue when an F-15 actually fires an AIM-120, so I start doing barrel rolls or zigzagging once I'm within absolute max range. This bleeds the missile's energy so that it cannot hit unless launched within about 10km, at which point I'll see the missile trail. The same will apply to the AIM-54. If you know an F-14 is in firing range, simply take light evasive action to cut its range from 100km to 15km, problem solved. Now yes, the wikipedia max range of the AIM-54 is closer to 200km, but we all know it's max range against a target flying mach 2 into it when launched from a mach 2 fighter is going to be well under 100km at 14km height. Even if the missiles were realistic, this method would still be effective with a little modification (wider zigzags mostly). It's also important to remember that the Su-27's R-27ER isn't exactly a short ranged missile either and the Su-27 does have the radar to make use of that range.

[Hook47]

Nope, it'll be:

 

1) F-14 detects Su-27 at 120nm.

2) F-14 fires AIM-54C (ECCM) at 80nm

3) 8nm from target AIM-54C (ECCM) goes pitbull, activating its onboard radar. It is at this moment that the Su-27 first knows he's been fired on.

4) At Mach 5, the missile covers that distance in... an eighth of a second...

5) One week after release, all major servers ban AIM-54C (ECCM) usage and the F-14 becomes a lawnmower because with AIM-7s it simply cannot play the BVR game.

 

Oh lord, I can see the AIM-54 being the next AIM 120C when it turns out that it isn't a 100% PK every shot in the sim, and then there will be a massive gripe that it is "broken" and "unrealistic"

 

Nevermind the fact that both AIM 54s fired in anger by US forced missed, IIRC.

 

It doesn't need to be detected. When flying the Su-27, I have no clue when an F-15 actually fires an AIM-120, so I start doing barrel rolls or zigzagging once I'm within absolute max range. This bleeds the missile's energy so that it cannot hit unless launched within about 10km, at which point I'll see the missile trail. The same will apply to the AIM-54. If you know an F-14 is in firing range, simply take light evasive action to cut its range from 100km to 15km, problem solved. Now yes, the wikipedia max range of the AIM-54 is closer to 200km, but we all know it's max range against a target flying mach 2 into it when launched from a mach 2 fighter is going to be well under 100km at 14km height. Even if the missiles were realistic, this method would still be effective with a little modification (wider zigzags mostly). It's also important to remember that the Su-27's R-27ER isn't exactly a short ranged missile either and the Su-27 does have the radar to make use of that range.

 

This exactly. Not even the greatest BVR missile in the sim can hit a pilot who is taking appropriate evasive measures. Hell you can defeat an AIM 120 in a MiG 15 if you know it's coming.

 

not really, in any sort of MP environment the flanker RWR is pretty worthless at telling you the specific threats.

 

in this case, you won't know it's an F-14 until pitbull unless you have perfect SA and know that there's no eagle in range to AMRAAM you.

 

in any case, it's going to be silly esp. if the missile is modeled correctly (and all of the other missiles are not) considering it's capabilities are, well, quite high.

 

i just hope that the active version of the phoenix is banned if it's as bad as it should be, it's going to be absurd assuming it's capable of hitting the enemy.

 

The Flanker RWR is far from worthless, you just have to use it correctly. No, it is not as fancy as the Western RWR, but it gets the job done. It wasn't designed to outline specific threats but it wouldn't make a difference in how I approached BVR anyway.

 

Since the Phoenix was originally designed to shoot down large slow non maneuvering targets, a fighter should be able to consistently defeat it unless they don't know it's coming.

 

I can't help but shake my head everytime I think about how much the Navy lost in capability when Dick Cheney (fitting first name!) decided to scrap the F-14 :disgust:

 

The thing would've been able to carry 4x AIM-120's + 2x AIM-9's + 4x AIM-54's + 2x external fuel bags all at the same time. Talk about an effective fleet defense!

 

With an upgraded electronics package I don't see any current fighter that could accomplish the same task as effectively..... and then to think that it got retired?! Ugh...

 

It's a bummer... An upgraded F-14 would school a Hornet, IMHO

Edited January 30, 2016 by Hook47