Why aren't there today any real good joysticks?

[Sokol1_br]

What will be great?

- cheap starter joystick with pots (because cheap joys still sell in tens of thousands) *

- upgradable to magnetic sensors (because there are also avid simmers)

 

* dont forget about the pots starter version, grandpas/mas also want to buy joysticks for their grandkids ;)

 

No, the market should say NO for cheap joysticks with pot's, because they will use the same "0,09$" low quality pot used now.

 

They can make cheap joys with contact less sensors. From some Melexis document:

 

The cost of a Hall IC depends on the application. Automotive Hall ICs may cost $0.35 to $1.50 or more, while Hall ICs for Industrial and Consumer applications, such as appliances, game machines, industrial manufacturing, instrumentation, telecom and computers, cost $0.20 or less.

 

The sensor (Melexis) used in Warthog/T.16000M cost 3,05$ in Digikey, cost less for industry in quantity.

The save that some brand make using pot only increase their profite, dont reduce the final price.

And are other contactless sensor models with less cost.

 

VKB deserve support, what they dream is the more close for a good low cost entry level joystick. That guys are before all, simmers.

 

We are in 2016, not in 2006. NO for obsolete technology.

 

The "high end" market already have their Warthog's and the (1999 fashion) CH. :D

And now really "high end" options in Rudder Pedal. :thumbup:

Edited February 11, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[RFC Rudel]

Agreed. As an electronic hobbyist can't agree more.

Standard USB board means teensy,arduino, a more powerful Raspberry Zero or custom boards with opensource firmware?

 

 

yes but the usb standard is crap.

 

The ideal will be cannon type connectors and a dedicated PC interface, with the optional or required external power.

 

Also proper RF/EMP Shielding, security for the hardware (rootkit in your controller)

 

onboard logs and electronics fault tolerance (or contingency gaming site :D)

 

later we can compare the signals from controller to the what the PC get, to what the Game get etc etc etc.

 

 

Design with NO COMPROMISE (in your mind is cheaper).

[Socket7]

yes but the usb standard is crap.

 

The ideal will be cannon type connectors and a dedicated PC interface, with the optional or required external power.

 

Also proper RF/EMP Shielding, security for the hardware (rootkit in your controller)

 

onboard logs and electronics fault tolerance (or contingency gaming site :D)

 

later we can compare the signals from controller to the what the PC get, to what the Game get etc etc etc.

 

 

Design with NO COMPROMISE (in your mind is cheaper).

 

.... Do you want to play flight sims, or just fiddle around with electronics for the rest of eternity. :huh:

[frogger]

i always liked the TM flight control system.

 

had a nice spring and the rubber below the stick was really firm aswell and the grip was a very common one from many aircraft. since i dont fly combat it was great. after that stick died i tried to modify everything.

 

this is what i have today.

the TM flight control system throttle with a homemade grip, u can see it used to have switches mounted in the base and the original grip used to have buttons and an xbox controller stick.

to the left of that is the basic microsoft sidewinder that was heavily modified using a cv boot from a magna and the grip from a weed wacker. this stick was amazing to use with the cv boot on it but it has hall sensors and they kept stuffing up. and then to the right is the old trusty microsoft sidewinder FFB2.

 

my aim is to get a oculus rift and mount a hotas to an ejection seat mock up and include rudder pedals.

[RFC Rudel]

.... Do you want to play flight sims, or just fiddle around with electronics for the rest of eternity. :huh:

 

Is the nt4 server syndrome .....take years to recover

[Elwood]

yes but the usb standard is crap.

 

The ideal will be cannon type connectors and a dedicated PC interface, with the optional or required external power.

Type-C can now deliver 100 watts at 20 volts and nothing to say about data transfer rate...

So maybe the additional USB-C PC-E interface, not required with new MB.

Quite enough to drive any FFB.

 

Design with NO COMPROMISE (in your mind is cheaper).

In my mind there is no compromise on the sensors and main mechanic springs etc...

Then I prefer a small grip, some other prefer a full scale F-18 stick reproduction. :pilotfly:

The secret is in the connector between stick and base, or throttle and base.

 

i always liked the TM flight control system.

That was a really nice one!

[RFC Rudel]

Type-C can now deliver 100 watts at 20 volts and nothing to say about data transfer rate...

So maybe the additional USB-C PC-E interface, not required with new MB.

Quite enough to drive any FFB.

 

 

if the psu is ok under load , if the motherboard is ok, variables that may affect the use and are not so easy to troubleshoot.

[RFC Rudel]

some other prefer a full scale F-18 stick reproduction. :pilotfly:

 

I want a full A4 reproduction:lol:

[Elwood]

The sensor (Melexis) used in Warthog/T.16000M cost 3,05$ in Digikey, cost less for industry in quantity.

 

It it the hall sensor MLX90316?

Which is good also because comes with SPI or PWM/Analog interface.

[Elwood]

I want a full A4 reproduction:lol:

Looking the warthog grip connector is it following any standard? Cannot find protocol information. Is it an SPI, I2C...or what?

[Sokol1_br]

Warthog grip (Cougar, F16FLCS, F22PRO, Cobra M-5, Mamba) use serial protocol with "shift register" circuit.

CD4021B in Tm (not sure what is used in M-5/Mamba). EDIT. M-5/Mamba use the same mc.

 

https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftIn

 

This make easy produce new grips for TM or VKB bases.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[Elwood]

Warthog grip (Cougar, F16FLCS, F22PRO, Cobra M-5, Mamba) use serial protocol with "shift register" circuit.

CD4021B in Tm (not sure what is used in M-5/Mamba). EDIT. M-5/Mamba use the same mc.

 

https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftIn

 

This make easy produce new grips for TM or VKB bases.

 

Thanks!

That's make things easier.

[Gaveroid]

Am I the only one that feels force feedback makes it games a bit more difficult? I mean, it's cool and all, but... I will admit I've never used force feedback on a flight stick but I have used it on a racing wheel and I find it very challenging to race with. I'd assume, that if you're in a plane that happens to need manual aiming, it'd be a nightmare... is this the case?

[Sokol1_br]

I too conclude the same, after some use of MS FFB PRO and FFB2 USB in IL-2 Sturmovik, I conclude that FFB hinder the main purpose of WWII "Combat Flight Simulators", put the gunsight piper over the "bandit", due the "gamey" stick shake when firing cannons in this game. And give up in use.

[ineth]

I wonder where this came from. I find that today out there there is a huge selection of wonderfull sticks tbh. I remember the day the closest i had for HOTAS was two joysticks pluged in to my amiga, for F16 combat pilot from digital integrations. So basic.

[DieHard]

Sorry, now that I look at your statement I may have read it and understood it wrong.

 

Overall, I think we can agree options are out there. Here I am still flying the *friendly* skies with my now 16 year old FighterStick, still performing as it did when I brought it home from the factory (CH Products). Yes, that's where I purchased it from. ;)

 

+1

 

Same for me, I have the 3 amigos, mine are around 6 years old, use them almost every day. I purchased them from their company, not a distributor, online.

 

Some old timer to the "Aces High" sim told me, "the last joystick you will ever need to buy" .

 

I don't program myself, but I use a couple of Crunch's creations and I am sure you and Bob helped him along with his .map 's .

Edited February 13, 2016 by DieHard

[SinusoidDelta]

I can't wait to get my hands on my VKB stick. It should be here in a month and a half. The warthog has been the single biggest disappointment I've spent four hundred dollars on. It is literally an oversized gimbal design out of a console gaming controller.

 

There is also the maxfighter and their line of projects. They are a pit though, not a desktop item.

 

In a perfect world I'd want a stick with redundancy, Hall IC's to measure displacement, a linear force curve inherent to the mechanical design and a load cell / stick force sensor to correct any error in commanded stick force vs predicted force for a given displacement. This could actually be done somewhat cheap now. There are certain automotive load cells that are very compact and have an incredible degree of accuracy, are extremely durable, and near identical calibration coefficients from part to part.

[hansangb]

Something tells me that you'll be disappointed with VKB too. You've set the bar pretty high there.

 

I think I'm getting my money's worth out of TM. Sure it can be better, but hey, nothing's perfect.

Edited February 13, 2016 by hansangb

[Harle]

nothing's perfect.

 

But sir, my BRD gimbal IS perfect :D

 

[hansangb]

That's the Baur BRD Mechanika Gimbal?

 

Which stick do you have mounted on it? The KG13 grip?

[SinusoidDelta]

Something tells me that you'll be disappointed with VKB too. You've set the bar pretty high there.

 

I think I'm getting my money's worth out of TM. Sure it can be better, but hey, nothing's perfect.

 

Have you tried out the VKB stick with the new cam gimbal design? I don't want to go into the specifics of my gripes with warthog but if you have information about the new VKB mechanism having issues please elaborate.

[hansangb]

No, I just meant from your wish list of perfect joystick. And actually, I'd love to hear your feedback after you try it out. Do you plan on using the TM grip on it?

[Vincent90]

I'm pretty bummed out that VKB isnt planning a Warthog competitor. I really like their sticks and especially their beautiful quality internals are a thing of joy.

 

Too bad you can only get them when you already have a proper hotas system at home, and at limited quantity at that.

[RFC Rudel]

I'm pretty bummed out that VKB isnt planning a Warthog competitor. I really like their sticks and especially their beautiful quality internals are a thing of joy.

 

Too bad you can only get them when you already have a proper hotas system at home, and at limited quantity at that.

 

 

yes they will, but they manage the info like it was the Manhattan project.....

 

 

They are slow because they are obsessive with quality, they make great products, only need to stop F on the details department......(manuals etc)

 

When all is done will be a scalable system that allow you to build your simulator according to your need and your wallet.

 

Will have options of

 

grips

Mechanical

Eletronics

Extensions

 

 

also upgrades to older models too.

 

 

We only need to wait and if UIV don't deliver, we can put a price on his head :D

[Harle]

That's the Baur BRD Mechanika Gimbal?

 

Which stick do you have mounted on it? The KG13 grip?

 

Yeah, from Baur it is.

Currently using TM W-hog's handle with it. KG13 doesn't seem to be a suitable tool for flight sim gaming. Way too few buttons for comfort.

By the way you don't need to use that "mechanika" word. Although it's a much broader term meaning "mechanics", within this context it means just "joystick gimbal".

Edited February 14, 2016 by Harle