intx Posted February 10, 2016 Posted February 10, 2016 When the mirrors are off, then I can clearly see the 970 shining but when the mirrors are on, the 970 performs just as poorly (or good) as the 750 ti, which really really confuses the shit out of me. I thought Kuky's explanation made a lot of sense and provided a plausible reason why the mirrors degrade your performance. It reminds me of the developer comments of Portal talking about the issues and optimizations they had to go through to render views beyond the holes created by the portal gun. Simple... mirrors are another full render of the sim, in opposite direction of your head view (to the front). For example.... you fly over a city and you no longer see city in front of you, but now mirror will see it.... so it will render all of the objects in them. If you are inside the large city, both head view and mirror view will render its own image... hence 2x the rendering and lower frame rate. Also you don't really need 8x MSAA, 4x is enough. Difference will show when you fly low over forests.
JazonXD Posted February 10, 2016 Author Posted February 10, 2016 Simple... mirrors are another full render of the sim, in opposite direction of your head view (to the front). For example.... you fly over a city and you no longer see city in front of you, but now mirror will see it.... so it will render all of the objects in them. If you are inside the large city, both head view and mirror view will render its own image... hence 2x the rendering and lower frame rate. Also you don't really need 8x MSAA, 4x is enough. Difference will show when you fly low over forests. This part i understand. In fact, I was thinking a lot about this. However, this somehow doesn't make sense. If I am using 0 MSAA, with mirrors ON, there's no performance difference compared to 16xQ with mirrors ON. Shouldn't performance be absolutely dead compared to none since it's rendering everything again? Also like I said, even I upgraded to a 970, I saw almost no performance gains with mirrors on compared to a 750 Ti, no matter the MSAA (and other) settings! AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd!
Rogue Trooper Posted February 16, 2016 Posted February 16, 2016 So the question has got to be. Should mirrors be more tune~able? should we be able to drop detail in the mirrors alone! I finally got cockpit shadows and mirrors in 1.5 and I am not letting go of them! HP G2 Reverb (Needs upgrading), Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate. set to OpenXR, but Open XR tool kit disabled. DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), DLSS setting is quality at 1.0. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC... Everything needs upgrading in this system!. Vaicom user and what a superb freebie it is! Virpil Mongoose T50M3 base & Mongoose CM2 Grip (not set for dead stick), Virpil TCS collective with counterbalance kit (woof woof). Virpil Apache Grip (OMG). MFG pedals with damper upgrade. Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound... goodbye VRS.
JazonXD Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 So the question has got to be. Should mirrors be more tune~able? should we be able to drop detail in the mirrors alone! I finally got cockpit shadows and mirrors in 1.5 and I am not letting go of them! Yeah, I thought that was the case too. I couldn't really afford to run mirrors in 1.2.16 with my 750 Ti, but after upgrading to 1.5, I could manage it, although I would still turn it off most of the times. I am extremely disappointed now, that after upgrading to a 970 (on average more than 2.5x faster!) it STILL has troubles running mirrors! The issue does not seem to be consistent though, Sometimes I will be at high altitude with nothing around me and get 100+fps with mirrors on and sometimes in similar situations I will drop down to 50 fps. Low and close to the deck however, 95% of the times when I have the mirrors on, I only get about 40 to 50fps which is quite disappointing. I find that when this happens, my GPU usage and power were dropping significantly. They go to like 50% to 60% power which when I am getting those proper 100+ frame rates, the GPU is using close to 100% of power. So now, I am not sure if this is an optimization thing. I wish that a developer or tester can comment on this... AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd!
Wizard1393 Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 Let me just chime in a bit late here on the "human eye/brain can't see/detect/feel above 30fps" thing. This is a very common misconception and is totally untrue. It originates from the statement that the human eye/brain needs 24/30FPS to perceive the images as "motion pictures". Lower than 24 we start to feel that it's still images displayed in a "fast rate" and not as "motion". GPU: PALIT NVIDIA RTX 3080 10GB | CPU: Intel Core i7-9700K @ 4,9GHz | RAM: 64GB DDR4 3000MHz VR: HP Reverb G2 | HOTAS: TM Warthog Throttle and Stick OS: Windows 10 22H2
JazonXD Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 Let me just chime in a bit late here on the "human eye/brain can't see/detect/feel above 30fps" thing. This is a very common misconception and is totally untrue. It originates from the statement that the human eye/brain needs 24/30FPS to perceive the images as "motion pictures". Lower than 24 we start to feel that it's still images displayed in a "fast rate" and not as "motion". I'll just quote what I said earlier in the post: "your eyes dont see in "frames" but if you put in terms of frames, the human eye can see even up to 1000 frames per second. Air force pilots were flashed by an image of an aircraft for only 1 millisecond which is 1/1000 sec. and they were able to identify the aircraft. That means, they can see up to 1000fps if you put into the "frames" idea." But I think the most important part is that the eyes do not see in "frames" AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd!
RoflSeal Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 I think Mirrors are a more CPU bound thing, check if you can overclock your CPU.
gazmonalpha Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 I wouldn't worry about having mirrors on tbh They are really performance intensive System Specs, Core i7 950 OC 4.2Ghz, 1.5TB Hdd, MSI GTX 980 Ti, 24GB Ram, WIN 10 64 Bit, 1000w PSU ,Trackir5, Thrustmaster Warthog:)
JazonXD Posted February 18, 2016 Author Posted February 18, 2016 I think Mirrors are a more CPU bound thing, check if you can overclock your CPU. Interesting... maybe I should look into the processing of mirrors in DCS. I really don't think it should be though, there's no reason why it should be CPU bound since it it's just rendering the world again but behind you... Also, it doesn't explain why sometimes I would get perfect frame rates even with mirrors on and sometimes (most of the times) having frame rates stuck below and around 60. Also, I can't overclock my CPU, 4570 is a locked chip I'm afraid :( AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd!
DayGlow Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 You still need cpu for the setup of the scene, and with mirrors you have the cpu setting up both scenes, so a faster cpu would work through the tasks faster. Fps would fluctuate because depending on how many objects need to be setup, both in front of you and behind. "It takes a big man to admit he is wrong...I'm not a big man" Chevy Chase, Fletch Lives 5800X3D - 64gb ram - RTX3080 - Windows 11
JazonXD Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 You still need cpu for the setup of the scene, and with mirrors you have the cpu setting up both scenes, so a faster cpu would work through the tasks faster. Fps would fluctuate because depending on how many objects need to be setup, both in front of you and behind. Interesting, maybe i'll try to disable two of my cores to see how that furthermore affects the performance of the game. AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd!
Kuky Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 If I am using 0 MSAA, with mirrors ON, there's no performance difference compared to 16xQ with mirrors ON. Shouldn't performance be absolutely dead compared to none since it's rendering everything again? No, because mirrors scene rendering (not graphical, but positional/calculations/etc) is on the CPU, while the MSAA is on video card, and scales with resolution (what you see on the monitor), so with or without mirrors, the scene size (your resolution) is the same. PC specs: Windows 11 Home | Asus TUF Gaming B850-Plus WiFi | AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D + LC 360 AIO | MSI RTX 5090 LC 360 AIO | 55" Samsung Odyssey Gen 2 | 64GB PC5-48000 DDR5 | 1TB M2 SSD for OS | 2TB M2 SSD for DCS | NZXT C1000 Gold ATX 3.1 1000W | TM Cougar Throttle, Floor Mounted MongoosT-50 Grip on TM Cougar board, MFG Crosswind, Track IR
JazonXD Posted February 20, 2016 Author Posted February 20, 2016 No, because mirrors scene rendering (not graphical, but positional/calculations/etc) is on the CPU, while the MSAA is on video card, and scales with resolution (what you see on the monitor), so with or without mirrors, the scene size (your resolution) is the same. Interesting, but when I have the mirrors ON, I don't see the CPU usage or load increase at all... the CPU usage stays the same throughout the whole mission/game regardless of settings at around 30% to 40%. I would expect to see CPU usage to spike up when there's mirrors ON, which could explain a CPU bottleneck, but that's not what happens. AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd!
Kuky Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 CPU usage will not increase because DCS would already be using the CPU to its max - keeping in mind DCS doesn't use all of the cores, it is still only single thread (meaning single core) application. So with 4 cores and 1 core used for DCS fully, when you add other things running on your system, seeing 30-40% CPU utilization is normal and expected. When mirrors are on and the scene has to be rendered (calculated) again... your CPU usage will not go up, but because CPU now has more things to calculate and DCS can't use more than 1 core, which is used already to its max, the FPS will go down. PC specs: Windows 11 Home | Asus TUF Gaming B850-Plus WiFi | AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D + LC 360 AIO | MSI RTX 5090 LC 360 AIO | 55" Samsung Odyssey Gen 2 | 64GB PC5-48000 DDR5 | 1TB M2 SSD for OS | 2TB M2 SSD for DCS | NZXT C1000 Gold ATX 3.1 1000W | TM Cougar Throttle, Floor Mounted MongoosT-50 Grip on TM Cougar board, MFG Crosswind, Track IR
JazonXD Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 CPU usage will not increase because DCS would already be using the CPU to its max - keeping in mind DCS doesn't use all of the cores, it is still only single thread (meaning single core) application. So with 4 cores and 1 core used for DCS fully, when you add other things running on your system, seeing 30-40% CPU utilization is normal and expected. When mirrors are on and the scene has to be rendered (calculated) again... your CPU usage will not go up, but because CPU now has more things to calculate and DCS can't use more than 1 core, which is used already to its max, the FPS will go down. Well clearly DCS DOES take advantage of some extra cores... http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=157374 However, I think you're right DCS doesn't use hardware enough and not properly. Will there be performance fixes/optimisations that will come eventually? I really hope so. I think performance optimisation is the achilles heel for most sims AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd!
JazonXD Posted February 27, 2016 Author Posted February 27, 2016 ok, so HUGE update/breakthrough. This is what i've found. Basically as I was experiencing the problems I explained above, I was running the game at 1080p with all settings at high and 16xQ anti-aliasing. I get the huge framerate drops whenever I'm flying low over a forest or just terrain in general. The framerate drops usually go lower than 60 if I have mirrors ON but if I turn them off, they can hover just right above 60. Just for fun, I decided to change the resolution to 1440. However, since DCS doesn't officially support DSR yet (I think), the UI becomes messed and you can't actually use the UI anymore; the buttons to "apply" or any button in general that's at the bottom or right side of the screen is not there (cut off). What I did to mitigate this was to go to my Nvidia control panel and force the resolution for my DESKTOP to 1440p as well. Now, I can see the whole UI and play DCS at 1440p. What I've noticed that there is a bit of performance drop when I'm up in the air and places where I usually get 130fps (looking straight into the sky) I am now getting only around 100. However, the super weird and interesting part is that when I fly low to the ground, I don't get those insane FPS drops below 60 anymore!? For some reason, playing the game at a higher resolution and which demands higher GPU power will somehow increase the performance at low level flight (I am talking about with mirrors ON as well). Between 1080p and 1440p, the CPU usage stayed the same regardless of environment. So this is becoming quite inconclusive for me. AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd!
Ignition Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Well clearly DCS DOES take advantage of some extra cores... http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=157374 However, I think you're right DCS doesn't use hardware enough and not properly. Will there be performance fixes/optimisations that will come eventually? I really hope so. I think performance optimisation is the achilles heel for most sims This game use very low the CPU, or not well I should say. Whith multiple units the FPS drops massively just by looking in the direction of the units no matter how far are you, you can notice 40fps drop and the cpu still at 20%.
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