Why is refueling in simulators so hard?

[HawkDCS]

I hadn't tried it in DCS until the other day.

 

I got hooked up within about 3 minutes I got about half a tank but then I got to fast and disconnected.

 

I came back up but the tanker kept pulling the boom away from me for some reason. It would always keep it about 10 feet from port I gave up and finished mission. I don't know if its a glitch or you have to restart the pre contact on radio.

Edited March 31, 2016 by HawkDCS

[paulca]

If you look up at the top right of the HUD you should see the "READY" green light. After your disconnect it shifts to "DISCONNECT". You have to get it back to READY. I tried switching the nose port thing off and on again and that worked.

 

The tanker may also say, "Return pre-contact", I believe you then also need to reply with "Ready Pre-Contact" again.

[Eddie]

You need to hit the NWS/AAR Disconnect on the Stick to reset the system following a disconnect.

[Arctic]

Pressing the Nosewheel steering button to get back to "Ready" is the right way. If the KC retracts the boom, you have to tell him "ready pre contact" again so he extract it again. That only happens when you're too far away from the boom... (or after a given time, i think).

 

Refueling in DCS is realistic IMO, except that we miss the sense for g-forces and a better View (FOV,...), and also the AI for sure. For a few its absolutely no problem to refuel an empty plane (Mirage, A10, F15) in one try, even if the tanker turns while refueling. Its all a matter of training, like in real life.

[hog_driver111th]

I can confirm what Arctic just said. I have been flying for a week with my Oculus Rift, and every mission I do, I put in a tanker because it looks cool. I don't put any waypoints, just have him on an orbit out of range of any air defenses. It's turning the whole time, but having the 3D and better FOV makes it super easy. I can connect as quick as they do in the video.

[ramayana]

If you've done rock solid hovering in huey, AAR will be a piece of cake. Yes, AAR isn't the hardest part in DCS :) Now I usually do it without any difficulty. I think it's something like learning how to ride a bicycle.

[paulca]

Pressing the Nosewheel steering button to get back to "Ready" is the right way.

 

Ah ha! Thank you.

 

Any idea what is happening if the tanker says "Contact.... you are taking fuel", but you don't see the gauge going up?

[Arctic]

Sorry, I dont know... That should never be the case IMO. If you are full the Operator will tell you "refueling complete". If you're taking fuel it will tell you that you are taking fuel. It will take a few seconds between "contact" and "you're taking fuel" but for the A10 its not possible to be connected without taking fuel afaik. For the Mirage for example it is possible, but the Operator will tell you "connected" "disconnected" "connected" ... again and again, when the fuel probe switch is not in turned on.

 

Maybe someone else has an idea... Maybe Mission is broken... If it happens a lot to you you should try to repair DCS, post a track file,... ;)

 

Edit/: Could also be that the tanker is empty, but it won't RTB because of some reason?! And keep in mind, refueling is slow... Takes a few minutes to fill up an empty hog, especially with fuel tanks attached... ;)

 

And for the difficulty of refueling in DCS: I remember I watched a video of F14 "Last cruise over Iraq" ( [ame]

[/ame] ). There they also say "refueling isnt easy always, especially in the goo..." while one can see a fast forwarded track of an Tomcat pilot struggling with connecting... Take a look at minute 5... But I recommend watching the whole video... Tomcat lovers will know it already... And the pilot that has problems reminds me of myself in the Mirage in the first days (but without turbulence...) ;)

 

 

 

@ Hog Driver: Nice to hear that! I hope i will try flying with VR also soon ;) Must be an awesome experience!!! Wish you fun, share your experience!

Edited April 1, 2016 by Arctic

[hog_driver111th]

@ Hog Driver: Nice to hear that! I hope i will try flying with VR also soon ;) Must be an awesome experience!!! Wish you fun, share your experience!

 

Not all that much to share, except that the 3D is amazing. The DK2 doesn't have the best resolution, and I have a lot of the graphics turned down. Still looks really good, and is pretty smooth, but instead of my GTX 750ti, if I had a GTX 980ti with a better monitor to set the resolution off of it would be much better.

That all being said, I can fly really smooth especially on the tanker. I need to get an extension for my warthog though, as doing tiny adjustments isn't the easiest... but as a real world pilot of 20 years, I can tell you that the Rift definitely gets you more in the cockpit than a Tir or anything like it.

 

Edit: I would like to add that I've added a couple mods (larger HUD font, Label adjustment to see where targets are only within a couple miles) and I have the 2D sprites turned on Large. The issue with that is you can see where all the civilian traffic is, and that's annoying.

[Redglyph]

If you've done rock solid hovering in huey, AAR will be a piece of cake.

 

... or take off in a Dora gracefully ;)

[BitMaster]

If you've done rock solid hovering in huey, AAR will be a piece of cake. Yes, AAR isn't the hardest part in DCS :) Now I usually do it without any difficulty. I think it's something like learning how to ride a bicycle.

 

 

+1 hehe

[Redglyph]

If you look up at the top right of the HUD you should see the "READY" green light. After your disconnect it shifts to "DISCONNECT". You have to get it back to READY. I tried switching the nose port thing off and on again and that worked.

 

The tanker may also say, "Return pre-contact", I believe you then also need to reply with "Ready Pre-Contact" again.

 

That's what I had wrong, thanks! Now with NWS/AAR in case of disconnect it's much more like it. The boom operator is still a little shy sometimes, but it's just the matter of taking care of the approach.

 

Now I understand why it was pointing at me all the time but not extending the hose. Silly me.

[SilentEagle]

I have tried recently, for quite a while. Today still, I could maintain the A-10C quite stable near the flying boom, but the AI wouldn't extend the tube enough.

 

In order to succeed, it seems the pilot has to surprise the AI a little bit and advance just at the right moment and impale on the tube. Normally I would expect the tank operator to extend the tube to establish contact once the aircraft is stable and at the correct distance.

 

Arguably I don't have much practice, but something is definitely wrong. When watching the track after a long session, from the external camera, it's obvious the contact could be triggered, actually the tube is inside the nose of the A-10C but nothing happens.

 

I'll leave that aside for now, I hope this is reported as necessary improvement / fix...

 

I see this post from a few years ago about how SP and host of MP makes the boom operator non-cooperative. Is this still the case?

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2261602&postcount=2

Edited April 29, 2016 by SilentEagle

[Gliptal]

I haven't had a problem with this. Although the AI does need some work, it actually helps quite a bit, and will manuever the boom into the receptacle if you're in range and stable enough.

[falcon00]

Yeah the AI needs real help. Plugging is the boomers job. Pilot just needs to stay in formation.

[Gliptal]

Well it's not that hard. Are you refueling at the correct speed?

[ebabil]

i am triying to make some refueling with a10-c. but boom operator and tanker plane don't help at all. they change their altitute for no reason, and constantly disconnect and say "return contact".

it's already very hard to maintain speed and allign and this stupidness of ai makes this even harder .

[NeilWillis]

I see this post from a few years ago about how SP and host of MP makes the boom operator non-cooperative. Is this still the case?

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2261602&postcount=2

 

I'm sorry to tell you that this is complete fiction. And that quote wasn't saying anything about what you were referring to. It was exploring a possible bug, and that was long ago.

 

The tanker is always rock steady - the boom operator is always totally co-operative, and the only variable in the whole exercise is yourself, the pilot.

 

People dream up all kinds of myths to explain stuff, but the bottom line is that AAR takes practice, and even when you have mastered it, if you don't keep practicing, you get rusty.

 

I can definitely confirm that using VR with the added depth perception makes the task easier, but it still depends entirely on a lot of practice, with good quality controllers.

 

It is all down to positioning yourself at the correct speed, a short distance from the tanker, trimming out your plane so it hold station precisely, and then inching slowly forwards and upwards.

 

The boom will move towards you, within it's very limited range of movement, so you have to be in the right place for it to make contact.

 

There are no secrets, there is no conspiracy, and if you can't do it, it is because you haven't practised enough yet.

 

Stick at it, and don't think it is hard, it isn't, it just needs a very refined set of skills, and once you have them, it remains a challenge, but you can be confident enough to guarantee full fuel tanks.

 

The real proof of completely mastering the art is being able to fill up completely in one contact.

 

Just forget all the bull, it is simply not correct.

[Eddie]

The tanker is always rock steady - the boom operator is always totally co-operative, and the only variable in the whole exercise is yourself, the pilot.

 

While you are right that is does ultimately take practice and requires maintaining currency, you have a very odd idea of rock steady and cooperative. Neither the tanker nor the boom operator behave as they would in reality, and this does make AAR more challenging in DCS than it could/should be.

 

The boom operator should be far more proactive in the contact process, not just hold the boom static, and they certainly shouldn't kick the boom up when you approach. And the tanker flight crew should adapt their airspeed (and altitude where necessary) for the receiver, turn smoothly at the same bank angle, and maintain a constant track regardless of wether an aircraft is on the boom or not.

[Steel Jaw]

Biggest problem I have is having to use the radio when I fall off to re enable the tanker, don't have to rin Falcon. IMHO that needs to change in DCS.

 

However, the Hawg really doesn't need to AAR in this sim due to its massive fuel efficemcy.

 

The Hornet C, coming however, with its nororiously small fuel load and high burn rate, will.

[NeilWillis]

Biggest problem I have is having to use the radio when I fall off to re enable the tanker, don't have to rin Falcon. IMHO that needs to change in DCS.

 

However, the Hawg really doesn't need to AAR in this sim due to its massive fuel efficemcy.

 

The Hornet C, coming however, with its nororiously small fuel load and high burn rate, will.

 

With regards the radio having to be used when you fall off - it depends on how far away you end up. If you remain close to the tanker, you will not need to speak, just push the pinky button and reset. The radio message has to be re-sent when you get a longer dstance away from the tanker.

[ebabil]

Biggest problem I have is having to use the radio when I fall off to re enable the tanker, don't have to rin Falcon. IMHO that needs to change in DCS.

 

However, the Hawg really doesn't need to AAR in this sim due to its massive fuel efficemcy.

 

The Hornet C, coming however, with its nororiously small fuel load and high burn rate, will.

 

yeah, that's why i try to learn this.

[NeilWillis]

The Hornet uses the drogue and probe method of refuelling, so it'd be better to practice with the Mirage, don't you think?

[Vitormouraa]

Perhaps, the Mirage has delta wings, different FBW, resulting a different flight dynamics, but yeah, it would be good to understand. You may understand it very well, how is the probe-and-drogue refueling, but it will be very different I guess..

[Aginor]

While you are right that is does ultimately take practice and requires maintaining currency, you have a very odd idea of rock steady and cooperative. Neither the tanker nor the boom operator behave as they would in reality, and this does make AAR more challenging in DCS than it could/should be.

 

The boom operator should be far more proactive in the contact process, not just hold the boom static, and they certainly shouldn't kick the boom up when you approach. And the tanker flight crew should adapt their airspeed (and altitude where necessary) for the receiver, turn smoothly at the same bank angle, and maintain a constant track regardless of wether an aircraft is on the boom or not.

 

This. So much this. Talking to real tanker crews reveals: DCSW tanker crews should get fired because they are making the whole thing much harder than it should be.

So no, it is not only the player's fault.

 

As for the radio thing Mower mentioned:

Doesn't happen often to me, and if it does it is one voice command and you are back on track. No big problem IMHO.

 

EDIT:

Refuel training for the F/A-18C could be done in M2000C or Su-33 I guess. Although I seriously hope that ED will rework refueling in the not too far future. The hose and basket physics are pretty much non-existant which breaks immersion.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Aginor