Tanker refuelling questions?

[bunraku]

Possibly the hardest thing I've ever done. My joystick hands sweating buckets. I thought I had it here, but think I was knt or 2 too fast. I have the tanker going at 224knts and I am closing at 226-227knts Also slightly lost control as I called for pre contact. Whats the best distance under the tanker? 150ft? Time for a new Head!! :music_whistling:

 

Anyway I think it was better so hopefully my next one will be a connection!!

 

Latest attempt.

 

https://youtu.be/V13zD69Wuwg

[Gliptal]

You were way too fast, it seemed like your intetion was to make the aircraft connect with the boom. That is not the case, since it's the other way round: it's the boom that moves to connect with the Warthog.

 

Focus on flying at a steady position behind and below the tanker. Start by placing the two inner engines of the tanker just tangent of your canopy inner side rails (sort of the position you're in at 1:35, but slightly closer and to the right). Keep that position for at least three minutes, without even trying to connect.

[WelshZeCorgi]

Hi

 

I am about to try my first refuelling in the Hog(Or any plane for that matter) and have some questions.

 

1) Is there a certain height you are supposed to fly below the tanker? I know it won’t be exact, but a ballpark figure for say 50ft for example and then fine tune after that. So tanker is 15,000 ft and I should fly at 14950ft for example as I close.

2) What is the length of the boom? Does anyone know as this will have a bearing on question 1

3) Why the different colours on the boom? Are they just for visual reference/warning or do they have meaning?

4) And lastly is it all trim and throttle to fine tune the pitch or should there be stick movement too?

Thanks very much.

 

 

 

I believe that this well made instructional video will answer all of these questions in detail.

 

[ame]

[/ame] Edited February 24, 2016 by WelshZeCorgi

[lobo]

How many pause TIR when refueling from the tanker?

[bunraku]

I believe that this well made instructional video will answer all of these questions in detail.

 

 

 

Oh I laughed so hard! At least he managed to get connected for 5 seconds!!

[bunraku]

Well my first contact albeit for only 2 seconds and it cost the lives of me and the 2 tanker crewman. I was quite chuffed with how quick I got back on to the boom after the first close contact and then I got my contact for real. However I lost it and I suspect I had to push the throttle forward a bit to remain connected, but that will come with experience.

 

However after I lost contact I forgot to press NWS and I suspect that's maybe why the boom never went in on the next attempt or maybe it just wasn't in the ballpark.

 

Anyway it went pear shaped after that and I can only take my hats of to the guys who do this for real as they "probably" don't get a 2nd try if it goes as bad as this.

 

Video below.

 

https://youtu.be/oSZ6WBnJZqM

[probad]

You're being too reactive and it feels to me you are getting mesmerized by the boom.

That initial approach to the boom where your pitch oscillations start you just drop the throttle back, and instead of bumping it back up immediately you instead wait until you've already lagged way behind the tanker before you remember it. You cannot have a dead hand on the throttle, you need to always be ready to respond with it (I think of Bruce Lee hopping around).

 

It takes time for your inputs to "catch" and so if you try to check an oscillation the moment it happens, your action will instead catch in phase with the next oscillation, compounding it instead of cancelling it out. You can see that happening with your porpoising, but the throttle works the same way. You must make an active effort to disconnect yourself with what the aircraft is doing at the moment in order to take the initiative when correcting oscillations.

 

Also make sure your mind is clear of any distractions. I feel like absolute metrics (exact airspeed, distances) for a beginner are distractions because they become points of fixation, and fixation leads to a lack of general focus, which is what you need in a situation with multiple simultaneous inputs like this.

Everyone is different though, ymmv.

Edited February 24, 2016 by probad

[Gliptal]

You were too high. Also, way too many oscillation in pitch. It looks like you aren't properly trimmed. Also, everything probad said above.

 

If you can, turn on the visual graph with the stick's and throttles positions.

[bunraku]

The way I have been approaching this and I know it's probably wrong is I know the tanker is going 224. I am trimmed for that speed, but of course I need to go faster than the tanker to catch it so am flying 225-226ish, but that of course is making my nose rise. So from what I have read in the previous posts instead of trim at that point I should be pushing the nose down and this of course would then increase speed, so throttle back?

 

You say I am too high, but I have asked twice in the thread already at what height should be I below the tanker and had no reply. That's not a criticism as I appreciate all the help, it's just please tell me? 100ft, 200ft, 300ft below the tanker?

 

I don't know what you mean by oscillate. Again please tell me?

 

Thanks

[Gliptal]

Don't even look at the speed. As a matter of fact don't even look at the HUD, you're not supposed to be using it as an asset while learning how to refuel. It later becomes useful, but now it's just a distraction: you could very well consider putting it in standby for now. You should only be relying on visual aids.

 

I couldn't tell you the height in feet, but as I said in a previous post, a good starting point is having the inner engines of the tanker tangent to your inner cockpit rails.

 

You oscillate when your stick movements are in phase with the plane's reaction to the previous stick movement. For example, you feel the plane go up and thus push the stick forward; it takes a while for the plane to react, so you over compensate and end up with the plane going down; you then pull on the stick, but then you are going up again and so on. The effects compound and you end up starting with a very small oscillation only to eventually swerve all over the place.

 

Real planes have been lost because of this effect, I know for a fact of an U2 being destroyed because of PIO on the ground (can't remember if while taxiing or landing though).

[probad]

No, fly up to the tanker from below, get close to the nozzle, without contacting it, hover there the best you can, all with manual control. THEN trim to lower manual input. If you aren't able to hold the plane reasonably steady without trimming, then you still need more practice flying a steady aircraft. The trim is to reduce your workload, it is not there so you can be hands-off, because afterwards you will still need the same degree of judgement and finesse to make adjustments on top of the trim.

 

edit: it really doesn't matter when you decide to trim your plane but use your head about it, if you get your plane trimmed 10 miles away and then have to slowly cripple over for 10 minutes with an uncomfortable trim then why bother?

 

Fig 1-1: This is you. Being aligned with the tanker in the HUD means you are above it because that's how the line of sight works with perspective. In this case, damn the trim, push your nose down and get below the tanker! What good is trim if you're not where you need to be in the first place? 1:30 in your video is more like it.

 

Fig. 2-1: This is what it means to approach from below. It's an arbitrary cone, but it just means from your perspective you will be looking up at the belly of the plane. This is why it's stupid to ask for an actual number of feet, because depending on your angle it might be any distance. I don't even know how you plan to measure the distance if you can't eyeball what it means to be "below" the tanker, no offense.

Anyways, a reasonable cone is the boom's range of motion. Don't ask for degrees here, it will not help you. You will get you and everyone else killed while you are distracted trying to do the math, so don't even try.

 

Fig 3-1: This is a pitch oscillation.

 

Fig 3-2: This is someone trying putting in corrective input in response to the plane's motion (plane goes down, so I pull up right away to counter that). Red is the input. Blue is the plane's response. The numbers indicate matching pairs of input/response. The blue oscillation as you can see lags behind the red, and the timing ends up making the results additive with the plane's actual motion, so instead of reducing the oscillation things only get worse.

 

Fig 3-3: With that knowledge in mind, this is someone timing their inputs so that the outputs will be timed to cancel the frequency of the oscillation.

 

 

Last words: the computing power of your subconscious is much greater than that of your conscious mind, since you're not trying to translate through an artificial language layer (numbers, words). You need to feel the plane and stop thinking in discrete terms. Once you've learned to eyeball, then you can bring in exact numbers to try for in order to help refine your actions.

Edited February 25, 2016 by probad

[bzhnono]

Wow.

[NeilWillis]

The way I have been approaching this and I know it's probably wrong is I know the tanker is going 224. I am trimmed for that speed, but of course I need to go faster than the tanker to catch it so am flying 225-226ish, but that of course is making my nose rise. So from what I have read in the previous posts instead of trim at that point I should be pushing the nose down and this of course would then increase speed, so throttle back?

 

You say I am too high, but I have asked twice in the thread already at what height should be I below the tanker and had no reply. That's not a criticism as I appreciate all the help, it's just please tell me? 100ft, 200ft, 300ft below the tanker?

 

I don't know what you mean by oscillate. Again please tell me?

 

Thanks

 

Unless you know the precise height of the tanker, talking in terms of altitude difference doesn't really help, and it just adds a layer of complexity you can do without.

 

The best advice is to start low, and work up towards the boom tip.

 

To trim, close on the tanker, and at about half a mile or less if you are comfortable being in close proximity, just match the tanker speed, and trim.

 

After that, call ready pre-contact, and forget all about trim, altitude, speed etc, and just concentrate on flying a smooth, close formation. Then, and only then, start to close the gap, and above all, keep your inputs smooth and as has been stated, try to anticipate rather than react to changes.

 

Take it slowly, and carefully, and just close up to contact, and then let the boom guy do his stuff. If you miss the connect, then drop below and back, and start again.

 

It takes a lot of concentration, and immense patience and perseverance to get it right.

 

Once you start making contacts more regularly, then start to make them longer and longer until you can refuel in a single contact.

 

There isn't much that is more satisfying than hearing the words "transfer complete, disconnect". Especially when you are in the middle of a multiplayer online session with your mates.

[bunraku]

Thanks again guys. My thinking was that the tanker is 12000ft so I fly 11850ft for example level below and slightly behind as I catch up till we are practically the same speed and then the boom operator does the rest.

 

I really appreciate the help and I know a lot of this is going over old ground, but out of everything I've done in the A-10C such as weapons and navigation which I am competent with, this is the hardest thing I've attempted. :)

[Mick F]

It takes a while to get it right, but once you do you'll do it easily every time.

 

No easy way around it, there's hours of practice needed to become competent, but the advice above should help greatly.

[Gliptal]

Thanks again guys. My thinking was that the tanker is 12000ft so I fly 11850ft for example level below and slightly behind as I catch up till we are practically the same speed and then the boom operator does the rest.

 

I really appreciate the help and I know a lot of this is going over old ground, but out of everything I've done in the A-10C such as weapons and navigation which I am competent with, this is the hardest thing I've attempted. :)

As said before, just ignore speed and altitude readouts and you'll find it easier.

[probad]

the boom operator does the rest.

 

please don't have the expectation you can just sit pretty at a magic stable trim and a magic matching speed.

 

sure those things technically exist but any one of an infinite number of factors can and will mess up your perfect setup in the blink of an eye, so when you go up to refuel you need to go in with the expectation both your hands are going to stay constantly moving until the very end

[bunraku]

Hi

 

Ok I can connect pretty consistently now. However I cannot maintain the connection for long. My personal best is maybe 15 seconds, but usually maybe a 5 second average. I've posted a video of 2 recent connections in quick succession. I try and slow down when boom shows red and stay constant on green and speed up when orange, but still disconnect. Sometimes it just disconnects on a good colour and I suspect that must be an angle issue.

 

Any advice or help appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Hope the video shows, but if not click on the direct link.

 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhC32RL1F_4[/ame]

 

[Gliptal]

You're too high.

[bunraku]

And that's all? Speed is good?

[Gliptal]

And that's all? Speed is good?

Can't really judge, but as long as you're keeping formation with the tanker you are within the envelope. There is no magic number.

[mr_mojo97]

Not flown the A-10C for a while but it certainly looks like you're having issues with your throttle management to me. It's got to be very fine adjustments with throttles when you are are taking fuel. It doesn't take much to come off the boom. Remember - when you're on the tanker gets lighter and you get heavier as the fuel is transferred which I'm certain is modelled so you have to adjust accordingly tiny amounts

[Xavven]

... Remember - when you're on the tanker gets lighter and you get heavier as the fuel is transferred which I'm certain is modelled so you have to adjust accordingly tiny amounts

 

Yes - you will need to retrim as you take fuel: one click of nose-up trim at one point.

[Sierra99]

All that only goes for refueling in the F-15, where the AR port is slightly behind the cockpit and you cant monitor the boom properly. In the A-10, the AR port is directly infront of the cockpit, so you have the boom in sight at all times and dont need the lights.

 

Don't fixate on the Boom...Fly formation on the tanker...in a position where the boom can make contact. If ya fixate on the boom you'll chase it all over the sky.

 

Sierra

[lobo]

-Trim A/C for speed before moving to contact.

-Ignore the HUD info once you are close to the tanker.

-Fly formation on the tanker NOT the boom. i.e. look through the boom.

-For better precision while refueling, rest forearm on leg while applying slight pressure as required to the joystick.

-Once connected and taking fuel, make small adjustments as required to keep the boom in the green arc.

-Breathe, wiggle your toes once in a while and relax your death grip on stick. 

-If using TrackIR, consider pausing it prior to connecting.

-Consider keeping feet off rudder pedals, flat on the floor.

-Move forward and close on the tanker at 2-3 knots until reaching the contact position.

-Align the boom with the center longitudinal axis of the aircraft. Make constant reference between the boom and the tanker fuselage and avoid chasing the boom.

-Practice, practice, practice.

-Try not to crash into tanker. :smilewink:

 

Well my first contact albeit for only 2 seconds and it cost the lives of me and the 2 tanker crewman.

 

Anyway it went pear shaped after that and I can only take my hats of to the guys who do this for real as they "probably" don't get a 2nd try if it goes as bad as this.

 

Video below.

 

https://youtu.be/oSZ6WBnJZqM