F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[D-Scythe]

You do realize that by the time it takes out the first 100 the other 900 will be within visual range. What you gonna do then? Hit the stealth button?

 

 

...are you serious?

 

How bout....A-pole the AMRAAMs, turn tail and run? Plus, how are the 900 other Flankers going to chase the F-22s around if they can't SEE IT? Or OUT-RUN it?

 

Wow, missed those little details there didn't you? Guess you were caught up in the fantasy of an anti-stealth, supercruising Flanker there for a moment.

 

Quantity is its own form of quality. You can win with MiG-15's if you have enough of them. A raptor can't take out 20 MiG-15's. i fyou have 20 ofem for every raptor out there, you'll eventually win.

 

What? How on earth can the MiG-15s (or anything) eventually win? The Raptor is going to be GONE (out of range and out of radar) by the time the first AMRAAMs are arriving on target.

 

The first four-to-six targets (MiG-15s, Fulcrums, Flankers, it doesn't matter) are going to be dead. The remaining 14-16 survivors are just going to be targets for the Raptor later.

 

This assumes, of course, if we're talking about an actual war here, where there are SAMs and other friendly fighters guarding the Raptor's "friendly" side of the fence.

[TucksonSonny]

The only difference between a force of 100 Su-27s and a force of 1000 Su-27s to the F-22 is that 1000 Flankers are gonna take longer to kill. Everything in the air is basically just a target to the Raptor - stealth, supercruise and great situational awareness ensures that the F-22 will be to engage what it wants, where it wants, and how it wants (provided that it comes with a competent pilot)..

 

The 33 best WWII tiger ace tank commanders scored together about 1616 tank kills.

Even a 33:1616 kill ratio was no guarantee for success.

 

 

http://www.alanhamby.com/aces.html ;)

[D-Scythe]

The 33 best WWII tiger ace tank commanders scored together about 1616 tank kills.

Even a 33:1616 kill ratio was no guarantee for success.

 

 

http://www.alanhamby.com/aces.html ;)

 

A Tiger tank can be seen, caught and thus destroyed. A Raptor cannot be seen, cannot be chased down and thus cannot be destroyed, no matter how much you want to wish otherwise.

[Ukr_Alex]

...are you serious?

 

How bout....A-pole the AMRAAMs, turn tail and run? Plus, how are the 900 other Flankers going to chase the F-22s around if they can't SEE IT? Or OUT-RUN it?

 

Wow, missed those little details there didn't you? Guess you were caught up in the fantasy of an anti-stealth, supercruising Flanker there for a moment.

 

 

You know what, I guess you are so caught up in the fantasy of stealth, and supercrusing Raptors that I just aint gonna bother waiking you up.

[TucksonSonny]

A Tiger tank can be seen, caught and thus destroyed. A Raptor cannot be seen, cannot be chased down and thus cannot be destroyed, no matter how much you want to wish otherwise.

 

Even your F22 has not a 1:49 kill ratio!

You don’t understand my point do you?

[Ukr_Alex]

A Tiger tank can be seen, caught and thus destroyed. A Raptor cannot be seen, cannot be chased down and thus cannot be destroyed, no matter how much you want to wish otherwise.

 

Unless it flies on hell knows what it emits IR.

 

And it cant outrun an R-73 with supercruise or superman straped to it as a third jet.

 

Or you still dont see it?

 

 

 

I mean how more obvious can I make it.

 

If I see an F22 with my eyes, I can take it out in my outdated Mig-29.

 

Comprende? Within visual range? Infra red? No radar radar?

[GGTharos]

The remaining 14-16 survivors will fly over that fence, get reduced in half (if you have that many missiles) and bomb the daylights out of the raptor's bases.

 

Use a bit of imagination already :P

 

 

We have a HUD picture of a hornet keeping its pipper on an F-22 already, we know it can be targeted :P

 

Quit being silly. You -cannot- function in the sort of target density that you describe, it is simply infeasible.

[Ukr_Alex]

The remaining 14-16 survivors will fly over that fence, get reduced in half (if you have that many missiles) and bomb the daylights out of the raptor's bases.

 

You silly you know the Raptor will just take em all out "later" After it manages to re-arm, re-refuel, grab a big mac and read the latest issue of Penthouse. :P It can do Mach 10 afterall ;)

[D-Scythe]

Quit being silly. You -cannot- function in the sort of target density that you describe, it is simply infeasible.

 

You don't think that it's possible for a group of Raptors to cross the fence, do some SpecOps-like operations (such as navigating between SAMs/enemy CAPs to kill an AWACs), and then get out unscathed?

 

You don't think that the F-22 can *choose* the type of target density that it wants to engage in? The thing can probably stand-back on the periphery and pick off individual targets/flights of targets before going back to base, re-arming, get a new pilot if need to be, and take off again. Rinse, wash, repeat.

 

Again, this assumes that yes, the Raptor base is more or less full protected and well defended.

 

Unless it flies on hell knows what it emits IR.

 

And it cant outrun an R-73 with supercruise or superman straped to it as a third jet.

 

Or you still dont see it?

 

I mean how more obvious can I make it.

 

If I see an F22 with my eyes, I can take it out in my outdated Mig-29.

 

Comprende? Within visual range? Infra red? No radar radar?

 

And how much more obvious can *I* make it? The detection range of the F-22 either to radar, IRST or visually is gonna be so low that it's not gonna matter to the F-22. It's still gonna dictate the fight how and where it wants to.

 

Comprende? Owned?

[Guest IguanaKing]

Quit being silly. You -cannot- function in the sort of target density that you describe, it is simply infeasible.

 

Yup, and its advantages are never a guarantee in an actual fight. If they were, there wouldn't be any reason for the M61A2 and bays for two AIM-9s being included in the final design. About IRST though...I wouldn't necessarily rule that out (for those who HAVE ruled it out). Just because we can't see it in unclassified photos or documentation doesn't mean that its not there. I'm pretty sure AFSC and NASA didn't spend all that time and money testing IRST on an AFTI F-16 for nothing. :smilewink: I sure did love how it hovered while standing on its tail for several seconds in those airshow vids though. Not particularly useful in combat, but it makes me wonder how it was accomplished. It almost suggests an RCS (the "other" RCS that DOESN'T have to do with radar ;) ) is in use on the plane.

[Ukr_Alex]

 

And how much more obvious can *I* make it? The detection range of the F-22 either to radar, IRST or visually is gonna be so low that it's not gonna matter to the F-22. It's still gonna dictate the fight how and where it wants to.

 

Comprende? Owned?

 

 

:megalol:

I give up. Your a lost cause.

 

So we have your batch of F22s and 1000 Su-27s. It takes out the first 100 BVR and by then the other 900 are WVR. And it still dont mater right?

 

Riight..........

 

:thumbup:

 

:joystick: :pilotfly:

 

 

 

Why cant you just accept the F22 for what it is? A stellar Air Superiority fighter. That can do what maybe what 5xF15s can do but solo...just for examples sake.

 

Why create this LSD type of cloudy illusion that its the arm of God all mighty in the the air we fly in.

 

 

P.S. And I am done with this argument. Things couldnt be more clear. Take what you want from it, or fanaticly believe what you wish.

[bflagg]

:megalol:

 

So we have your batch of F22s and 1000 Su-27s. It takes out the first 100 BVR and by then the other 900 are WVR. And it still dont mater right?

 

 

if i may interrupt...

 

The suggestion that only a bunch of 22's against 1000 SU's, is frankly a fantasy senario.

 

what your forgetting is , if there is that many SU's to take on we can pretty much be guarenteed that there will be an abundance of 15,16,18 ...etc etc..to work as a team with the 22's to them pick them off.

 

Lose a 15, 16 , 18? Yup.. quite possible..

Lose a 22?

Don't think so since it can always keep out of visual range of any other adversarial aircraft out there, it will spoof anything but the hand of god..and tell the 15, 16, 18's where to lock their missles......all the while the 22 is 50nm away and out of danger.

 

there is just noway to beat this senario.

 

Until Russia comes up with a 22 counterpart..is just not going to happen..

[bflagg]

 

We have a HUD picture of a hornet keeping its pipper on an F-22 already, we know it can be targeted :P

 

 

You probably heard this..but for others...

 

The 18 broke flight engagement rules during this exercise and this is how this came about...

(reported on other sites..from (can't remember right now) a 22's flight chief or a retired instructor pilot....)

[D-Scythe]

As for the F/A-18 vs. F-22 thing, the main thing to remember is that the scenario was specifically set up as a contingency because dogfighting is something that all Raptor pilots train to AVOID.

 

if i may interrupt...

 

The suggestion that only a bunch of 22's against 1000 SU's, is frankly a fantasy senario.

 

what your forgetting is , if there is that many SU's to take on we can pretty much be guarenteed that there will be an abundance of 15,16,18 ...etc etc..

to work as a team with the 22's to them pick them off.

 

Lose a 15, 16 , 18? Yup.. quite possible..

Lose a 22? don't think so since it can always keep out of visual range of any other adversarial aircraft out there, it will spoof anything but the hand of god..and tell the 15, 16, 18's where to lock their missles......all the while the 22 is 50nm away and out of danger.

 

there is just noway to beat this senario.

 

Until Russia comes up with a 22 counterpart..is just not going to happen..

 

Thank you. That's the scenario that I've been dictating all along, that an air force with a smaller fleet of F-22s would eventually achieve air dominance over a numercially superior air force without F-22s/counter-part.

 

Why cant you just accept the F22 for what it is? A stellar Air Superiority fighter. That can do what maybe what 5xF15s can do but solo...just for examples sake.

 

Why create this LSD type of cloudy illusion that its the arm of God all mighty in the the air we fly in.

 

I *do* accept the Raptor for what it is. I never said it was invincible. I just said that it has *no* counterpart. It's the type of weapon that requires a counterpart to defeat it, not merely something that is numercially superior.

 

The F-22 can engage/disengage WHENEVER it wants. If desired, there will be NO visual range fighting, at ALL. Should the Raptor pilots desire, they could keep ALL their fights BVR. I don't get why you think that all aerial battles will eventually degenerate into a dogfight. They *don't*, and that's YOUR illusion.

[Shaman]

57317#

 

I mean how more obvious can I make it.

 

If I see an F22 with my eyes, I can take it out (...)

 

You are soooo wrooong :chair:

 

[D-Scythe]

He's not wrong. But you can't see the F-22 BVR (i.e. BEYOND VISUAL RANGE), and the Raptor pilot has the luxury of keeping the fight BVR.

 

The only way to visually spot an F-22 is if the pilot chooses to push the engagement into a dogfight. And no sane pilot would willing choose to engage in a dogfight where the odds of winning are even - they are going to be INCREDIBLY stacked in the F-22's favour. Otherwise, the pilots WON'T engage in a dogfight, cause they have stealth and supercruise.

 

Gee, I repeated that 100 times already.

[Jester_159th]

I've not really wanted to get into this debate, but I have to point something out here.

 

Those of you assuming that the technological excellence of the Raptor will automatically result in total air dominance are overlooking one MAJOR fact here.

 

We are not the only ones that read websites and aviation journals.

 

You can bet your last penny that ANY nation who's political situation involves possible conflict with either the US or NATO will have been evaluating the Raptors potential capabilities and will be drawing up contingency plans and tactics to suit (assuming they have an air force any way comprable to any NATO country). Sure, the tactics may not work, but they're going to try. I fervently hope that we never find out if their tactics do work or not, since that will probably entail a major world conflict.

 

Technological excellence alone has never won a war, and it never will. No matter how great the Raptor's abilities are in reality, it is going to have weaknesses and no doubt any weakness will be the cause of major tactical planning on the part of the USAF to minimise it's effects on the Raptor's performance, but that won't stop any potential enemy from trying to exploit it ruthlessly should conflict occur.

 

To assume the enemy will fight the war your way is a good way to lose the war. Better to overestimate their ability to respond first, then relax should you find they're not as capable in dealing with the Raptor as you expected, than assume the Raptor will be near invunerable and have to rethink drastically should it be found that it's not.

 

None of this detracts from the fact that the Raptor is a work of engineering genius of the highest standard. We should admire it as just that..... And no more.

[Guest IguanaKing]

You probably heard this..but for others...

 

The 18 broke flight engagement rules during this exercise and this is how this came about...

(reported on other sites..from (can't remember right now) a 22's flight chief or a retired instructor pilot....)

 

True, it did, but there are not many engagement rules in combat. Also, like D-Scythe said, it was a contingency, a scripted exercise...but, it wouldn't be scripted if it couldn't possibly happen. :smilewink: Was it a kill shot? None of us will ever know, but its a place where NO pilot, Raptor or not, wants to find himself.

 

Shamandgg,

I LMFAO at that photo, its great humor...too bad SOME people don't get it. Nudge, nudge. :smilewink: Much more creative than showing Wonder Woman in her invisible jet. :D

[D-Scythe]

Iguana, I DID get it...too bad he posted the photo AFTER I replied (he edited his post 10 min after my reply) ;)

 

Jester, of course nobody has ever won on technological supremacy alone - cept in sci-fi novels and make belief. But you have to realize, USAF pilots/tactics are not taking a back seat because they got the Raptor now; every single Raptor pilot has been hand-picked and are largely considered the best of the US Air Force. Every contingency can have a counter-contingency, and so on.

 

A tactic that might work on the F-22 one day may be negated when F-22 pilots come up with a counter-tactic the next.

[Guest IguanaKing]

I've not really wanted to get into this debate, but I have to point something out here.

 

Those of you assuming that the technological excellence of the Raptor will automatically result in total air dominance are overlooking one MAJOR fact here.

 

We are not the only ones that read websites and aviation journals.

 

You can bet your last penny that ANY nation who's political situation involves possible conflict with either the US or NATO will have been evaluating the Raptors potential capabilities and will be drawing up contingency plans and tactics to suit (assuming they have an air force any way comprable to any NATO country). Sure, the tactics may not work, but they're going to try. I fervently hope that we never find out if their tactics do work or not, since that will probably entail a major world conflict.

 

Technological excellence alone has never won a war, and it never will. No matter how great the Raptor's abilities are in reality, it is going to have weaknesses and no doubt any weakness will be the cause of major tactical planning on the part of the USAF to minimise it's effects on the Raptor's performance, but that won't stop any potential enemy from trying to exploit it ruthlessly should conflict occur.

 

To assume the enemy will fight the war your way is a good way to lose the war. Better to overestimate their ability to respond first, then relax should you find they're not as capable in dealing with the Raptor as you expected, than assume the Raptor will be near invunerable and have to rethink drastically should it be found that it's not.

 

None of this detracts from the fact that the Raptor is a work of engineering genius of the highest standard. We should admire it as just that..... And no more.

 

EXACTLY!!! There are people on both sides of the ideological fence, MUCH smarter than any of us, who have access to info none of us do. Underestimating your enemy will get you killed EVERY TIME. But, then again, that's why the Raptor is an important addition, because it definitely doesn't represent a "What do we need that for, our enemy isn't that smart, we can get by with this much cheaper model" kind of attitude. I am very much a firm believer in the saying "That which was created by the human mind can be defeated by the human mind.", but the F-22 does give certain, undeniable advantages.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Iguana, I DID get it...too bad he posted the photo AFTER I replied ;)

 

See? That's what I get for taking my eyes off the ball. :D

[D-Scythe]

EXACTLY!!! There are people on both sides of the ideological fence, MUCH smarter than any of us, who have access to info none of us do. Underestimating your enemy will get you killed EVERY TIME.

 

For the record, nobody's underestimating anything (*don't engage the Flanker in a knife-fight, remember? ;) ). It's just that one of the F-22's many advantages is that it doesn't ALLOW the other team to play the game to their strengths.

 

Again, if it wanted to, the F-22 can force the enemy to play the BVR game with them 99.99% of the time. If 2 Raptors went up against 40 Flankers and killed 10 of them with AMRAAMs, how's the other 30 Flankers gonna "force" the F-22s into a visual range for a dogfight? When the 10 Flankers die, there isn't any sign that says "F-22s are here - afterburn there and kill them now". The only warning they're gonna get is when the AMRAAMs go active, and by that time the Raptors are cruising stealthily away at Mach 1.7.

 

I have yet to come up any facts that state that there is something in the world that can force the F-22 to play fair and do some dogfighting every now and then. There isn't.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Actually, I'm applying that to both sides of the argument...well, mainly the "Stealth is worthless" crowd. You know...the guys who say...yeah, we could detect and track the F-22 if we do this. What makes me chuckle is that guys like that don't seem to realize that maybe, just maybe, the F-22s designers have already envisioned that possibility. :smilewink:

 

Engaging the Flanker in a knife fight? I don't know, that Raptor vid with the "well...I don't know what the hell to call it" turn looked pretty damned impressive. You know...the one where the guy near the camera was heard saying "Whoah!!! What the...!!!"

[Pilotasso]

but most of times they believe so, yet offer no concrete information on how would they do it because sincerely they dont have the slightest idea.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Oh...I just thought of a name for that turn. The Mongoose. You know...the mongoose kills the kobra. ;) Nah...that's not quite true...the mongoose just sneaks past the cobra and eats the cobra's babies. :D