[Help] Dodging amraams

[apocom]

Hi guys, I have some trouble dodging amraams fired at close distance (5-12km). Assume there is no terrain and both fighters are around 3-5km altitude (starting condition at around 30km, I tend to loose some altitude when it's getting closer). I'm talking about MP and opponents that have an idea what they are doing.

 

The maneuvers I try to perform are:

 

cranking/snaking

+ easy to perform

+ pretty awesome against every missile shot at you ~20 km

- too less maneuvering for anything closer

 

barrel roll

+ seems to be the maneuver that forces the incoming missile to fly the furthest distance (besides going cold)

+ constant high G

- I tend to loose a lot of SA (can be overcome with more training)

- seems to depend on luck

 

turning into the missile at the last moment

- I'm pretty bad with this. I die to 11 out of 10 missiles. In the 11th case I break my wings.

 

notching

+ seems to be pretty op and I have some success to find the notch when the missile is further away

- when fired close I die too often

What is the doppler notch speed for the amraams radar?

 

mixing it up

I try to mix some maneuvers, for example cranking left followed with a half barrel roll. Seems to be pretty ok, but nothing I would bet my life on.

 

snaking towards the ground

+ I have good success with that even when the missile is fired at around 7km

- I loose a lot of energy

- is a pretty passive maneuver

 

lure the missile into the ground

+ works pretty well

- it really depends on the situation if it will work

 

I've read through some real world stuff that doesn't seem to translate into DCS (for example you can't abuse the lack of information TWS provides)

 

So to specify my question, what is my best bet to avoid an amraam fired at me at 5-12km while keeping the enemy aircraft locked (or at least stay agressive) and without the possibility to terrain mask?

[Stuge]

Low altitude/diving notch. At least momentarily. Once you think the missile's defeated, turn back hot. :)

 

Continuing towards the missile at short ranges is just asking for trouble, there are really no guarantees of survival...

 

As a desperate defense you can try shooting down an AMRAAM with R73 or R27ET (longitudinal mode works best for this) but my last test indicates this is not a very reliable method currently :):):)

[kobeshow]

Like Stuge said, in your scenario (5-12km) there is only notching/turning cold that will help you. If you want to stay aggressive, squeeze off an ET and dive while going into the notch.

[apocom]

Thanks for the replies, so I know what I'm going to focus my training on.

 

Any ideas for a good training method, or simply grind experience?

 

[DarkFire]

Thanks for the replies, so I know what I'm going to focus my training on.

 

Any ideas for a good training method, or simply grind experience?

 

 

Keep practising. Eventually you'll gain situational awareness in terms of when to dive/notch & develop a sort of 6th sense about when an AMRAAM is probably headed your way. Even with diving, notching & chaffing, survival isn't guaranteed.

[winchesterdelta1]

Terrain masking. Dive behind a hill or something like that.

[Stuge]

Quickest way probably is grind experience :) But make it with a friend, 1v1, airstart, and practice it 1-2 hours straight several times a week you'll get good ;)

 

Oh and keep in mind the notch is only reliable if the enemy radar (be it missile or aircraft radar) is looking downwards against the terrain. In co-altitude and look-up situations the notch is not reliable.

[apocom]

Quickest way probably is grind experience :) But make it with a friend, 1v1, airstart, and practice it 1-2 hours straight several times a week you'll get good ;)

 

Oh and keep in mind the notch is only reliable if the enemy radar (be it missile or aircraft radar) is looking downwards against the terrain. In co-altitude and look-up situations the notch is not reliable.

 

Thank you so much. I've spend the last 2 hours training against the A.I. without using chaff so I can easily check my mistakes in tacview. This is so strong.

 

One thing that can be surprisingly hard is too keep your cool while notching.

 

Thanks again :thumbup:

[Angel101]

Real tactics dictate that if you are facing an Amraam plattform with inferior missile capability, fly towards nearest allied country.

[apocom]

Holy moly Batman,

 

notching is incredible. If done correctly you have a 100% chance to defeat the incoming (radar guided) missile.

 

Now I have an additional question. With the new damage model you can either fly fast or pull hard. This makes the F15 so much more better in notching stuff it's like night and day. With the F15 I can pull hard and then glide into the notch. Unfortunately I like the SU27 more.

 

So what to do? Should I decelerate with the SU27 to get a better handling and to reduce my workload (notching while monitoring your G)?

 

[GGTharos]

Why are you flying such a heavy flanker that you might break it anyway?

 

And why are you supersonic (M0.85-1.25 is lowest g-loading region of tolerance) in that case?

[Stuge]

Holy moly Batman,

 

notching is incredible. If done correctly you have a 100% chance to defeat the incoming (radar guided) missile.

 

Now I have an additional question. With the new damage model you can either fly fast or pull hard. This makes the F15 so much more better in notching stuff it's like night and day. With the F15 I can pull hard and then glide into the notch. Unfortunately I like the SU27 more.

 

So what to do? Should I decelerate with the SU27 to get a better handling and to reduce my workload (notching while monitoring your G)?

 

The new stress damage model does make it much trickier I agree, to the point that the Su-27 has lost a significant part of its close range defensive potential, and is now quite outclassed by the F-15 in this scenario :) I am not used to this at all yet...

 

I guess I would say it depends in what way you decide you want to defeat the missile, kinematically or breaking lock with the notch. This in turn depends on the range of the shot - get close enough and kinematic defeat is impossible.

 

Kinematically ---> high speed and turn back then snake.

 

Notching ---> slow down for better control and less risk of breaking the thing. This will put you in a good speed to turn hot hard to defend what is likely to follow: heatseekers, maybe even a gunshot, into the merge and ensuing dogfight :)

 

If you start this terminal defense too early (perhaps because of an incoming heatseeker) and the attacker is smart enough to fire another radar missile shot, then you're dead :) The trick is to turn in so close that any radar missile shot at that time will not accelerate enough to maneuver for a hit.

 

Things also get tricky if you have multiple amraams incoming - they can easily come from slightly different angles, meaning that you can't notch them all at the same time.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Stuge

[apocom]

Why are you flying such a heavy flanker that you might break it anyway?

 

And why are you supersonic (M0.85-1.25 is lowest g-loading region of tolerance) in that case?

 

I tried this with different fuel settings. Started with 40% fuel without weapons and in the last tests with 85% fuel and full weapons. FYI that is too much. For MP I just stay in AB until I've burned some fuel.

 

And I'm fast because of habit? Prior to the last patch there was rarely a reason to be not as fast as possible. It will take some time to retrain mechanics.

 

The new stress damage model does make it much trickier I agree, to the point that the Su-27 has lost a significant part of its close range defensive potential, and is now quite outclassed by the F-15 in this scenario I am not used to this at all yet...

 

I guess I would say it depends in what way you decide you want to defeat the missile, kinematically or breaking lock with the notch. This in turn depends on the range of the shot - get close enough and kinematic defeat is impossible.

 

Kinematically ---> high speed and turn back then snake.

 

Notching ---> slow down for better control and less risk of breaking the thing. This will put you in a good speed to turn hot hard to defend what is likely to follow: heatseekers, maybe even a gunshot, into the merge and ensuing dogfight

 

If you start this terminal defense too early (perhaps because of an incoming heatseeker) and the attacker is smart enough to fire another radar missile shot, then you're dead The trick is to turn in so close that any radar missile shot at that time will not accelerate enough to maneuver for a hit.

 

Things also get tricky if you have multiple amraams incoming - they can easily come from slightly different angles, meaning that you can't notch them all at the same time.

 

Another advantage of being slow is, that your notch corridor is wider.

 

But I disagree with your last statement, simply because you can glide through the notch, defending multiple missiles with similar angle. As long as they are coming from the same launching platform I can't imagine that you can shoot them in a way that they are not notchable (this isn't even a word, is it). In the end, the defender is in control of the missile.