2v4 tac view.

[Capn kamikaze]

[ame]

[/ame]

 

This is in single player, all AI are set to excellent, wingman is pretty useless as the fight was pretty much over by the time he got there....

[Capn kamikaze]

Oh and no labels used...

[DarkFire]

Good effort! Thought things got a little close at the 59 second mark :)

 

If that were me I'd be having a lengthy chat with my useless wingman after landing...

[Capn kamikaze]

Thanks, it was probably the best fight I've ever had on there in SP.

[TAW_Blaze]

1) Title says 2v4. Wingman doesn't even appear on the scene until all bandits are dead. :megalol:

 

2) Try that against players. First thing you'll notice that they'll reliably dodge shots fired at 6nm instad of getting killed by 12-14 nm shots from low altitude. Second thing you'll notice they won't give you the courtesy of sitting within your azimuth limits. Hey guys, let's make sure he can monitor us and fire at us all at once without moving a finger!

 

Third thing you will notice is them firing everything at your ****ing face when they got all the cards against you instead of turning cold with no shot as seen by the 3rd artificial retard. lmao

 

Other crucial mistake: you just bracketed yourself with their flights. Your gameplan is all well and good if you delete all of their planes in one go. Problem is that's impossible against any half competent group of guys. They only need a mile or two ladder formation and the guy in trail will never go down with the current missile performance.

 

Better approach would be to offset one side and create as much time as possible between engagements. If you crank one side you basically create a temporal 1v2 instead of fighting all 4 at once. If the close flight is cocky and they want to take you then you have a really good chance at killing them before the others arrive.

[Bushmanni]

Missile fight is all about launching your missiles at the edge of the enemy missile range and then executing most efficient and effective maneuver to dodge the enemy missiles. If the enemy fails at this, he gets hit while you don't. The closer you get to the enemy no-escape-range, the smaller mistakes is needed by bandit for him to get hit. Of course this applies to you too which means that you have to be very good at judging the enemy missile range and executing proper missile avoidance maneuvers. AI sucks in all of this very badly. You can easily get close enough of the AI that you are guaranteed 99% hit probability because AI doesn't know how to defeat missiles and thus can take out multiple of them in one swoop while remaining safe yourself.

 

If bandit fires his missiles from too far away you can dodge them just by changing your crank to opposite side. (crank is a maneuver where you turn away from the bandit enough so that he is at the gimbal limit of your radar) At 20k feet altitude you can get to 11 NM distance safely by approaching the bandit while cranking, then turn at him, fox and make a split-S to escape and run away from the bandit missiles. If the bandit fires at you from long range, just change the side of the crank and the missile won't catch you.

 

The previous technique is a bit hard to practice properly against AI as AI doesn't wait to the 10 NM distance to fire his missiles but fires early so you don't get the feel of dodging missiles fired at the edge of no-escape-zone. You can set up the AI to start closer so that he fires the missiles at 10 NM mark and then try to dodge them.

[Capn kamikaze]

2) Try that against players. First thing you'll notice that they'll reliably dodge shots fired at 6nm instad of getting killed by 12-14 nm shots from low altitude.

 

That's not at low altitude.

 

If you look at it full screen, the fight starts at about 8km alt, it just looks like its low level because of the perspective and the speed I am going, and it is sped up, top left corner.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Cap'n kamikaze

[Capn kamikaze]

"Other crucial mistake: you just bracketed yourself with their flights."

 

Again, no, the perspective, speed and time compression makes it look like this is close range, it is not, at no point was I between them, I was never bracketed, I always intended to fire at them, put them on the defensive, and then turn and run, and then re-engage them after extending while they were busy dealing with/getting blown to bits by by slammers.

 

I'd rather have put the actual track file up, but it is 12mb, and the forums won't let me anyway.

[Capn kamikaze]

My first missile is actually fired at about 44km from target #1, the second at about 34km against target #2, at 41km for #3, and then I disengaged.

 

Target #2 and #3 were killed, 1 ran north, I ran south, I shot at #4 at 8km, then after being briefly defensive against #4 I turned back to #1 and shot at him at 25km, damaged him, I saw a trail of leaking fuel, so went in close and finshed him with a 9M.

[TAW_Blaze]

That's not at low altitude.

 

If you look at it full screen, the fight starts at about 8km alt, it just looks like its low level because of the perspective and the speed I am going, and it is sped up, top left corner.

 

Might've been at the start, but it was 3-5 km mostly later on. Regardless, 12-14 nm shots won't kill players whether you're at 8 km or 4.

 

Again, no, the perspective, speed and time compression makes it look like this is close range, it is not, at no point was I between them, I was never bracketed, I always intended to fire at them, put them on the defensive, and then turn and run, and then re-engage them after extending while they were busy dealing with/getting blown to bits by by slammers.

 

I'd rather have put the actual track file up, but it is 12mb, and the forums won't let me anyway.

 

Oh but you were. It's hard to tell azimuth based on this view but it looks like about 20-40 deg. You flew straight into a spot where you basically bracket yourself to some extent whether you accept this or not. The point is you won't have enough space or time to turn and run and then fight again because by the time you'd by trying to recommit some elements of the flights will be close enough to deny you the opportunity.

 

Btw. flying M1.8 straight into 2 groups of bandits with virtually no crank is a real good way to get yourself killed. They could afford a missile or two from long range from either side that might reach you before you arrive at your engagement point.

 

I did a bit of basic trigonometry on a paper to see how things behave when u have 2 groups with 60 deg separation aprroaching both at ~ 40 miles, assumed 600 kts speed for everyone. If you crank properly you can possibly create more than 10 minutes of a time window before the other group can even come near you. Obviously fighting back will reduce the effect but people seriously underestimate the power of picking your fights properly. Right now the numbers on the sheet say I have nearly 20 minutes before second flight will be closing in on me (counted from the point I can already fight the first group!) because the closure of the flight in the back is about one third or a quarter of the one I'm planning to fight first. Fighting the first group would probably reduce this to ~ 15 or 10 but even that is a hell of a lot of time. Quite enough to beat the first group if you ask me.

 

Also not a negligible circumstance is that doing what I described will severely drain their fuel and also consume a lot of time so any help on the way towards you will probably have a higher chance of being useful. Considering a 1v4 the situation can't really get much worse than it already is so the enemies getting help (provided from predictable directions, if they suddenly surround you out of nowhere then you're ****ed anyway) it doesn't matter much. About the only time you should rush in like that is when you don't have much fuel left but you have to fight regardless.

 

If you wanna keep telling me that your tactics were good because they worked against AI then be my guest. I'm just trying to help here, but if you don't want it then you won't have to ask twice. Splitting the fight into a 1v2 where your bandits get help after some minutes is a way better choice than to rush head straight into all 4.

[GGTharos]

You were bracketed; you just don't know what 'bracketing' means. The only reason you survived here is because you're not facing a 4-ship flight that can actually fly like a 4-ship flight.

 

This is a tactical failure which should have resulted in the destruction of your aircraft or at minimum and turn-and-run with zero kills for you.

 

It's just that the AI can't quite hack it :)

 

 

"Other crucial mistake: you just bracketed yourself with their flights."

 

Again, no, the perspective, speed and time compression makes it look like this is close range, it is not, at no point was I between them, I was never bracketed,

[Capn kamikaze]

I've got the actual track, and can move the camera around and check the ranges, and positions in 3D.....

[Capn kamikaze]

"Btw. flying M1.8 straight into 2 groups of bandits with virtually no crank is a real good way to get yourself killed."

 

Now I know you didn't actually pay attention to what I was doing, firstly I was at most 1.6, and the whole point was to give my missiles as much speed at launch.

 

The whole idea was get missiles off at as many bandits as possible as fast as possible and get them all defensive, and it works, only one of them didn't get a 120 fired at them, and because I was turning enough to force my missiles to go pitbull each of them suddenly realised they had a 120 heading to them and had to go defensive, which meant all their Radar R-27's suddenly lost guidance, leaving me to only worry about the TE's, during which time I turned and extended.

[Capn kamikaze]

By turning from one group to the other and back again that provides crank.

[Drona]

I really don't know whether to laugh or cry at this.... Anyway, you are an uber pilot with elite skills and no one can kill you man, not even four AI Su-27s having you bracketed!!! Sarcasm off...

 

As others have pointed out, if that was four half-decent Su-27 drivers, you would be dead. Even a single half-decent Su-27 driver would have taken you out :)

[TAW_Blaze]

Now I know you didn't actually pay attention to what I was doing' date=' firstly I was at most 1.6, and the whole point was to give my missiles as much speed at launch.[/quote']

 

Actually at 0:30 you're doing M1.72 but whatever. I'm not the one not paying attention here. I would have assumed one creates such a thread to seek better solutions for the situation, seems not. I guess your tactics are perfect because they worked against AI.

 

Amusingly enough your tactics honor your name. :megalol:

 

The whole idea was get missiles off at as many bandits as possible as fast as possible and get them all defensive

 

Cool, and then what? These missiles will never kill them, they won't even bother them much. Since you're screaming at them so fast they might launch at long ranges and because you're flying straight into the missile until you reach your launch point those missiles might even arrive there and shoot your ass down. You can't just simply fly straight at enemy flights when they see you, it doesn't work. Forcing them to be defensive isn't enough, you have to pose as a sufficient threat to force them defensive enough. This equates to them giving up angles, turning cold, running away etc. If all they need to do is a couple of S turns to throw off your missile then you haven't really done shit.

 

and it works' date=' only one of them didn't get a 120 fired at them, and because I was turning enough to force my missiles to go pitbull each of them suddenly realised they had a 120 heading to them and had to go defensive, which meant all their Radar R-27's suddenly lost guidance, leaving me to only worry about the TE's, during which time I turned and extended. [/quote']

 

Had I been the lead of the enemy flight I would presumed exactly what you did because 9/10 times if someone does that it'll lead to him firing at all of us. I would've seen it coming a year before you started firing. Against any decent player those shots would've missed so badly they wouldn't even have a very hard time defending. So basically you waste 4 of your total 6 or 8 missiles to achieve practically nothing. I kid you not it's an extremely hard work to get into good launching positions against ONE good player to kill him, when you're flying against 2 or more it's near impossible. All they need is a mile or two separation and the further guy will be outside parameters, mostly because the missiles are horrible. If they know about your presence, that is. If you split the fight into a 1v2 like I said you can organize your resources better because you only need worry about 2 of them for a while. This means less incoming attacks to defend and less enemies to fire missiles at. You could force both on the defensive and if they slightly separate you could pick on one so even his wingman will have a bit of trouble helping him. In this situation you can afford multiple turns of engagements while in a 1v4 you will have a very hard time ever recommiting, and even if you do, you might not have enough missiles after wasting 4 right away to ever do anything again. Since the opposition will outnumber you so hard they won't even have to fire anything to force your hand you'll be out of missiles before you know it. It's also next to impossible to find good pK launch spots against 4 guys because in any case this will mean you are exposing yourself to atleast the one you're firing at, and if they didn't completely **** up then you expose yourself to more than 1.

[Frostie]

You could put 8 AI up there and splash all 8 but you'll still have learned nothing especially using active missiles.

 

The AI have no plan other than fly by themselves and press any hostile they see. The AI don't anticipate, co-ordinate or form any sort of multiship offence like what real players with a modicum of sense would try.

This is basically target practice nothing more.

[Weta43]

It's nice to see the MP community rally around and make helpful and encouraging comments to offline players that feel they've achieved something of a personal milestone, and do so in a way that doesn't undermine the poster's sense of achievement, but instead prepares them for the step up to flying against humans not AI.

 

Shame that's not what happened in this thread.

[Frostie]

It's nice to see the MP community rally around and make helpful and encouraging comments to offline players that feel they've achieved something of a personal milestone, and do so in a way that doesn't undermine the poster's sense of achievement, but instead prepares them for the step up to flying against humans not AI.

 

Shame that's not what happened in this thread.

 

To be fair killing four AI is no easy feat, but when some pointed out the flaws in his approach he rather took the position of knowing best which makes you wonder what is the point of the thread, if it is a case of look how easy I despatch of AIs then well done you, but its as probably tactically taxing as killing space invaders, here have some advice.

[*Rage*]

Lol Blaze and Frostie:)

[TAW_Blaze]

The AI have no plan other than fly by themselves and press any hostile they see. The AI don't anticipate, co-ordinate or form any sort of multiship offence like what real players with a modicum of sense would try.

 

Actually not only they don't fight as a team, but they don't even really fight as individuals. Their fighting logic compared to a good player is so horrible they might aswell be target dummies. If you measure the success of your tactics by the wrong standards it'll develop a fighting style that'll result in a disaster once you go online. Fighting the AI is only good to learn your own systems, and even for that it's quite limited. Better go online straight up.

 

It's nice to see the MP community rally around and make helpful and encouraging comments to offline players that feel they've achieved something of a personal milestone, and do so in a way that doesn't undermine the poster's sense of achievement, but instead prepares them for the step up to flying against humans not AI.

 

Shame that's not what happened in this thread.

 

I'm glad that he feels accomplished by killing 4 AI.

 

I thought the point of this forum was to share knowledge and that's what I've been doing the vast majority of my posts. Only reason I'm a bit harsh is because I want him to snap out of this illusion that his tactics are good because they worked against AI. He might've done some things right but I'd much rather focus on showing him where he could have made much better decisions to create a much more favorable fight for himself.

 

You need to be open-minded if you want to learn, even if that includes your "feel good" moments being crushed ever so often. I know it's tough, but that's how it works.

[Capn kamikaze]

Nothing was offered as advice of what should have been done in that situation, only criticism.

 

So I think the only reasonable response now from me is "screw you".

[TAW_Blaze]

Nothing was offered as advice? Ooooooooooooooooooookay then.

 

/thread

 

I shared a whole gameplan of what to do, went into the trouble to even explain why it's better and detailed how much of an edge it'll give you and in what manner. I also pointed out a dozen of things you did wrong and I even explained how it could've been done better in some cases.

 

Fun fact, I've been on this forum for a while, and I've read a lot of threads, especially the ones about tactics, and not once I have ever seen one that went into as much detail about offseting as I gave you. Lots of guys tell you to split the enemy flights by cranking away from both, what they never talk about is how much time you're exactly buying.

 

But I guess all I can get is a "screw you" for trying to help. Fantastic.

[Capn kamikaze]

You offered nothing that was relevant to the situation I was in, you don't know how the mission was set up, how they were paired, had a single perspective rather than a 3D one.

 

It was nothing but criticism, so refer back to my previous post, and it goes for a couple others who "offered" nothing either.

[TAW_Blaze]

Nothing stopped you from cranking to the side and creating a bigger time window for yourself. You could have taken the time to explain what the bigger picture was, but instead you took the stance of "I know it better anyway". I don't need a 3D perspective to understand what's going on, I can tell it just fine from the one available. I highly doubt you placed another airforce or a dense SAM zone on either side of their flanks just to cockblock yourself from making the fight better for yourself.

 

FYI constructive criticism is a form of advice. Showing what you did wrong helps to understand what you need to work on, even if the solution isn't immediately given. It can point you towards asking the right questions and focusing on the right things.

 

Don't worry though, with this attitude you'll never become a better fighter pilot.