future functionalities in M2000C

[blast]

hi everyone,

 

I have some questions about the mirage 2000 future developments. I bought it 1 month ago and i already have hours spend on it. In my opinion it's a good mod, but to be honest I think it cannot face an su27 or an f15 in its actual version during multiplayer sessions. I think and i hope It would be better when completely finished in order to be competitive against moderns fighters. Here are my questions:

 

1. When will we have the final version ? (approximate date)

 

2. How can i be notified about new updates and fix of the mirage mod?

 

3. Does the warning infrared missile is implemented today (i think it is the D2M) ?

 

4. Concerning the auto-countermeasures about chaffs and flares, how this feature will be supposed to work when finished? Would it launch chaffs and flares automatically when a threat would be detected?

 

5. What the LL jammer is supposed to do ? is it already implemented?

 

6. About the INS, I heard it's the heart of this plane. What would we have more when finished?

 

7. About laser guided bombs (gbu12), today we can only use this bombs in solo mod by creating a mission with buddy laser guy. It makes then impossible to use these bombs during multiplayer sessions (personnaly, i never seen a server with jtac options with lazer guidance). Of course, we can ask an A10 to laze the target... which is absolutely not usefull. My question: will it be possible to drop guided bombs on targets with gps coordinates when the INS will be finished? :pilotfly:

 

Thanks a lot in advance for your answers. They will make me sleep better ^^

[rrohde]

Just to add:

 

Will the autopilot "approach mode" get some love as well? Doesn't really work well at this time.

 

Thanks! :thumbup:

Edited June 7, 2016 by rrohde

[nomdeplume]

but to be honest I think it cannot face an su27 or an f15 in its actual version during multiplayer sessions.

It's a generation behind those fighters, so of course it's not going to be able to face them 1v1 on even footing. If the newer jets are restricted to SARH missiles it'll have more of a chance of closing, but new jets are designed to outperform old jets in all categories.

 

That said, both the F-15 and Su-27 are flown by people, and people make mistakes. So if you make fewer mistakes, you can still win.

 

I think and i hope It would be better when completely finished in order to be competitive against moderns fighters.

Like other DCS modules, Razbam are not trying to make something that is nicely balanced with other fighters in the game. They are trying to recreate an 1980s era light interceptor with all the limitations the real aircraft had. If it could match the performance of newer fighters, nobody would have made newer fighters since they weren't better than what already existed.

 

1. When will we have the final version ? (approximate date)

When it's ready . :D

 

2. How can i be notified about new updates and fix of the mirage mod?

At the moment, the forums are the best way. The sticky "M-2000C Pending Update Fix List" thread is the best single thread to follow for news, although there's also discussion there.

 

3. Does the warning infrared missile is implemented today (i think it is the D2M) ?

No, not yet. Razbam have indicated they plan to implement it later as its lack of use in real M-2000C aircraft is probably due to just not being required for their role, not a technical inability to utilise the detector pylons.

 

4. Concerning the auto-countermeasures about chaffs and flares, how this feature will be supposed to work when finished? Would it launch chaffs and flares automatically when a threat would be detected?

I don't know the details, and probably nobody who really knows the details will tell. But basically, yes. Although in most sims people usually use semi-automatic mode at most, because fully automatic dispensing of countermeasures tends to waste a lot of them.

 

5. What the LL jammer is supposed to do ? is it already implemented?

LL is the decoy launcher. When powered, you can launch flares/chaffs. That part is already implemented, the automatic dispension of countermeasures when a threat is detected isn't, and neither are different countermeasure programs/sequences.

 

6. About the INS, I heard it's the heart of this plane. What would we have more when finished?

Not sure I'd agree with it being the 'heart', people have been flying and navigating for a long time before these fancy schmancy navigation systems were developed.

 

From a user functionality point of view, the main addition will be the ability to add/edit waypoints from the cockpit. This will primarily be useful for CAS missions.

 

Also, INS drift should be modelled in some way. This means the aircraft's notion of its position will lose accuracy as you fly, up to about 1 nautical mile per hour. The effect will be the instruments that point you to your waypoint will only be pointing you roughly to the right position.

 

7. About laser guided bombs (gbu12), today we can only use this bombs in solo mod by creating a mission with buddy laser guy. It makes then impossible to use these bombs during multiplayer sessions (personnaly, i never seen a server with jtac options with lazer guidance). Of course, we can ask an A10 to laze the target... which is absolutely not usefull. My question: will it be possible to drop guided bombs on targets with gps coordinates when the INS will be finished?

No, this is not functionality the Mirage 2000C has. And I'm not sure how you figure asking another player to lase the target is not useful. Why play MP if you're not going to play with other people?

 

The nature of public servers makes it difficult to set up anything that requires coordination, and they tend to run missions for a long time so providing AI-lased targets for everyone is a bit of a hassle.

 

On the plus side, dropping LGBs from the M-2000C is probably the least interesting thing you can do with it. So you could potentially do a few deliveries in single-player, go "hmm, I guess that was kind of neat", and then not worry about it anymore? :)

[QuiGon]

nomedeplume already gave a great answer, so I just want to add something to number 6:

 

The INS is the primary navigation system of the M2000. It's just very rudimentary implemented currently, so you can navigate to pre-planned waypoints. In the future, when the INS is fully implemented you will be able to create new waypoints inflight by entering coordinates. It will also get a warm up time, because for now you can turn it on and it will work instantly which is not correct.

[ZHeN]

I wonder how you gonna enter GPS coords into LGBs and hit unlased targets ? :D :D :D

(btw yesterday I've played online on a couple of servers, which had JTACs on 'em)

 

and how's Mirage gonna detect infrared launches not having any passive e-o sensors on board ?

[QuiGon]

[...]

and how's Mirage gonna detect infrared launches not having any passive e-o sensors on board ?

 

Are they not there yet? It will get them then I guess, since the D2M is already confirmed to get implemented.

Edited June 7, 2016 by QuiGon

[agentdarnell]

The mirage 2000, f-15, mig-29 are all 4th gen fighters. mirage 2000 introduced in 1982, f-15c 1979, mig 29 1983.

[Vitormouraa]

and how's Mirage gonna detect infrared launches not having any passive e-o sensors on board ?

 

Mirage does have MWS.

[ZHeN]

Mirage does have MWS.

 

Are they not there yet? It will get them then I guess, since the D2M is already confirmed to be implemented.

 

yep, sorry guys, my bad and ignorance :doh:

[QuiGon]

The mirage 2000, f-15, mig-29 are all 4th gen fighters. mirage 2000 introduced in 1982, f-15c 1979, mig 29 1983.

 

That's right. The M2000 is of the same gen as the F-15 and it's still in active duty with the french air force and other countries. We just have an older variant with inferior missiles than are used now (MICA). Saying it is an old gen aircraft is like saying the F-16A is an old gen aircraft, just because it can only use AIM-9s. But they are all 4th gen aircraft.

[agentdarnell]

That's right. The M2000 is of the same gen as the F-15 and it's still in active duty with the french air force and other countries. We just have an older variant with inferior missiles than are used now (MICA). Saying it is an old gen aircraft is like saying the F-16A is an old gen aircraft, just because it can only use AIM-9s. But they are all 4th gen aircraft.

That's just because its French and they are a bit slow when it comes to the arms race.:music_whistling:

[pyromaniac4002]

It's a generation behind those fighters...

 

No, it's not. F-15's first flight was in '72, Flanker's was in '77, M2k's was in '78. It's firmly within the 4th-generation of fighters. It doesn't have an AMRAAM nor an R-27ER equivalent, but the aircraft itself is very much in the same league as the aircraft that do have those tools at their disposal.

[QuiGon]

That's just because its French and they are a bit slow when it comes to the arms race.:music_whistling:

 

They use MICA for quite some time now, it's just not used on our DCS variant ;)

[nomdeplume]

No, it's not. F-15's first flight was in '72, Flanker's was in '77, M2k's was in '78. It's firmly within the 4th-generation of fighters.

I stand corrected, but I really meant more in terms of its avionics and weapons capabilities. Even though the DCS M-2000C and DCS F-15C (for example) are arguably only a few years apart, the ability to use ARH and track and launch on multiple targets simultaneously creates a huge capability gap.

 

Though on reflection, perhaps most of the Mirage's deficiencies are down to its role/design purpose: it's a light interceptor, and will naturally struggle against air superiority fighters. Though I think the DCS F-15C would be 'better' at all air-to-air missions than the M-2000C RDI, probably same for Su-27.

[npole]

hi everyone,

 

I have some questions about the mirage 2000 future developments. I bought it 1 month ago and i already have hours spend on it. In my opinion it's a good mod, but to be honest I think it cannot face an su27 or an f15 in its actual version during multiplayer sessions. I think and i hope It would be better when completely finished in order to be competitive against moderns fighters. Here are my questions:

 

1. When will we have the final version ? (approximate date)

 

You think wrong... that's was my same idea initially, but then I figured that the M2000C is what it is, you cannot compete with F-15C and Su27 online (at pair pilot skill), both are superior in every situation because of superior weapons and superior radars: 120C and 27ER will kill you before you can even think to use your cork 530D and in close combat the target lock on the F15C and Su27 will remain locked on you even when you're 90° on a side and their short range weapons will hit you no matter how many thing you may chaff/flare (while your Magic looks like an autobus launched to the enemy that wants only to go for its own course.. :) ).

 

You may opt to:

 

- Play only PvE;

- Play on a server with only Mirages and inferior aircrafts;

- Play on a server with only newbies (inferior than your skill);

- Accept the challenge... but do not rage after many deaths by a 120C. :)

 

If you believe that this aircraft will be "better" in the online fights in its final form, you are wrong. According to the developer, this is how the real plane fly, and it cannot be artificially improved, it will only be improved to have an accurate representation of the real M2000C, it will not improve its fighting capabilities, if not marginally.

It's a nice model to have because it's beauty and accurate, but if you're that one who's interested only to collect "kills" online.. then the F-15C and the Su27 are the ones to go.

[QuiGon]

You think wrong... that's was my same idea initially, but then I figured that the M2000C is what it is, you cannot compete with F-15C and Su27 online (at pair pilot skill), both are superior in every situation because of superior weapons and superior radars: 120C and 27ER will kill you before you can even think to use your cork 530D and in close combat the target lock on the F15C and Su27 will remain locked on you even when you're 90° on a side and their short range weapons will hit you no matter how many thing you may chaff/flare (while your Magic looks like an autobus launched to the enemy that wants only to go for its own course.. :) ).

 

You may opt to:

 

- Play only PvE;

- Play on a server with only Mirages and inferior aircrafts;

- Play on a server with only newbies (inferior than your skill);

- Accept the challenge... but do not rage after many deaths by a 120C. :)

 

If you believe that this aircraft will be "better" in the online fights in its final form, you are wrong. According to the developer, this is how the real plane fly, and it cannot be artificially improved, it will only be improved to have an accurate representation of the real M2000C, it will not improve its fighting capabilities, if not marginally.

It's a nice model to have because it's beauty and accurate, but if you're that one who's interested only to collect "kills" online.. then the F-15C and the Su27 are the ones to go.

 

I can't agree with that, at least not completly. The M2000 is inferior indeed, but not as much as you say. Its radar is actually pretty nice and not much worse than the F-15s radar and together with the RWR it provides pretty good SA. The SARH missile is also inferior, especially if you fight against ARH missiles, but again, the difference to the AIM-7 isn't that big. But where the Mirage really suceeds is knife fighting. No other current aircraft in DCS can match the instantaneous turn rate of the Mirage, which makes it a really superior aircraft after the merge.

 

I fly it a lot in BlueFlag and especially in it's current 80s setting (meaning no ARH missiles like the AIM-120) it's almost on par with the FC3 fighters throughout.

Edited June 7, 2016 by QuiGon

[Azrayen]

and how's Mirage gonna detect infrared launches not having any passive e-o sensors on board ?

Are they not there yet? It will get them then I guess, since the D2M is already confirmed to be implemented.

Mirage does have MWS.

 

OK... much confusion here :)

 

Let's try again:

 

IRL:

• The M-2000C is not equipped with MWS; it has provision (switch + probably some wiring) to do so, though.
  
• Other variants (specialized in A-to-G tasks) such as the M-2000D for example, are equipped of MWS.
  
• MWS sensors are mounted on the rear of the "Magic" pylons (longer pylons).
  

 

In DCS:

• The M-2000C is not equipped with MWS today.
  
• Razbam has said it will be equipped with MWS eventually (justification is above, IRL if need was there, FAF could quicky mount the longer pylons and off you go; perhaps some chips to enhance too, not a true "plug & play" thing, but not far from it)
  
• When is "eventually"? My guess here: after other functionnalities are finished. I mean, the M-2000C could be declared out of beta without the MWS. But not without the INS.
  

Think of MWS as the cherry on the cake ;)

 

++

[Gliptal]

I can't agree with that, at least not completly. The M2000 is inferior indeed, but not as much as you say. It's radar is actually pretty nice and not much worse than the F-15s radar and together with the RWR it provides pretty good SA. The SARH missile is also inferior, especially if you fight against ARH missiles, but again, the difference to the AIM-7 isn't that big. But where the Mirage really suceeds is knife fighting. No other current aircraft in DCS can match the instantaneous turn rate of the Mirage, which makes it a really superior aircraft after the merge.

 

I fly it a lot in BlueFlag and especially in it's current 80s setting (meaning no ARH missiles like the AIM-120) it's almost on par with the FC3 fighters throughout.

This whole discussion stems from the fact that the F-15 still has that aura of being the ultimate dogfighter, when it actually is not. A lot of people tend not to accept this as a fact. :D

[Vitormouraa]

Again, Mirage does use MWS, although it's on the pylon. Also Zeus answered about it time ago.

 

Currently it is not working and yes it will be implemented.

I'll try to squeeze it in the radar upgrade schedule but no promises.

[jojo]

Again, Mirage does use MWS, although it's on the pylon. Also Zeus answered about it time ago.

 

Again, that doesn't mean anything. There is not only ONE Mirage 2000, but a bunch of dedicated variants.

 

The Brazilian F-2000 were delivered without D2M (MWS), and there is no proof it was ever fitted on Mirage 2000C at all. It's used for sure on Mirage 2000N and Mirage 2000D.

 

So if Razbam does it, consider it a gift, not something that they owe to you.

[Vitormouraa]

So if Razbam does it, consider it a gift, not something that they owe to you.

 

Sorry but I didn't say they owe something to me, that doesn't even make sense, because as you can see above, nobody was talking about "oh I need MWS", we were discussing about future functionalities coming to DCS, and MWS is one of them, I'm just saying it uses MWS.

 

If Zeus says it will be implemented, why are we discussing this? Ok, this got really confused. :helpsmilie:

Edited June 7, 2016 by Vitormouraa

[jojo]

Everyone keep asking like they can't fly without it whereas the real M-2000C is not fitted with it.

Strange isn't it ?

[Vitormouraa]

Everyone keep asking like they can't fly without it whereas the real M-2000C is not fitted with it.

Strange isn't it ?

 

You might be right, personally I'm not a pro player in the Mirage, but perhaps it's because the MWS does a lot of difference (at least in the A-10C, however it should be less effective in the Mirage), they really want it. :)

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Mirage is my favorite module so far, so the MWS implementation, at least in my opinion, will be very important.

[npole]

I can't agree with that, at least not completly. The M2000 is inferior indeed, but not as much as you say. Its radar is actually pretty nice and not much worse than the F-15s radar and together with the RWR it provides pretty good SA.

 

The F-15C radar (in the game) is capable to intercept almost any flying target up to 80nm without any issue, it also provides you the correct heading of the target even if it's jamming, it can also hole the enemy ECM with ease by spamming the TDS up to 20nm, while the M2000C has a fake "jumping target" that drives you crazy to run after it with the target designator... those time which is capable of keeping something, because in many occasions I had the target in visual range and it wasn't even shown on the radar despite the fact that I had the cone pointed directly in front of me.

 

The SARH missile is also inferior, especially if you fight against ARH missiles, but again, the difference to the AIM-7 isn't that big. But where the Mirage really suceeds is knife fighting. No other current aircraft in DCS can match the instantaneous turn rate of the Mirage, which makes it a really superior aircraft after the merge.

 

I don't need to follow you, you'll be death before you can do anything really... I'll shot you from the high without you even realize from where the missile come from. Also the AIM-7 does crazy thing: I can shot at you while following at 90°, literally at your side, and the missile will hit you doing crazy things at high G's... while your Magic will go straight under the same conditions.

 

I fly it a lot in BlueFlag and especially in it's current 80s setting (meaning no ARH missiles like the AIM-120) it's almost on par with the FC3 fighters throughout.

 

Yes, you need to play on nerfed servers to artificially increase your chances.. and neither this is enough to compete at pair. The only way to get fun is to play on a Mirage only server... that doesn't exists.

 

Listen, I'm not saying that the Mirage is bad, this is probably due to the opposite: it's the other planes that aren't well simulated, resulting to be "op"... but here we are talking about how good is the 2000 in a MP scenario, and unfortunately in a scenario where all the aircrafts and all the weapons are available, the Mirage is cannon meat.

 

I'm saying this to not give false hopes to those users who believes to fight at pair with the others, you are NOT... you can get fun as well, but you must know that you're starting with a huge disadvantage. This is the reality.

Edited June 7, 2016 by npole