The best Attack Helicopter today

[Hummingbird]

Apache has quite similar SAS and autopilot system as Ka-50 except it lacks the route mode. The biggest difference is the UI which works more intuitively and doesn't fight the pilot.

 

Like in Ka-50 the Apache has magnetic brake/spring feel trim system and four channel SAS with limited 10% authority that provides rate dampening, command system and hold system. Command system provides uniform aircraft response at all speeds and turn coordination at speeds greater than 40kts while hold system provides attitude, altitude, position and speed holds. Pilot can "fly through" the hold modes in any or all axes. If pilot moves controls away from trimmed position that axis reference is not held until controls are moved back to trimmed position and the system then captures a new reference. If hold mode is disengaged or one of the SAS channels is saturated a tone sounds to alert the pilot.

 

I'm asking since in the Ka-50 you constantly have to trim for yaw, and thus I was wondering wether the same was the case in the Apache, if not that would reduce work load.

[Fjordmonkey]

Ability to simultaneously engage 16 tanks with ATGMs at once, while only poking your radar mast above cover, then ripple firing 16 missiles and exiting immediately before missiles even hit. Ability to control UAVs and linked to all other battlefield assets. No other helicopter can do it.

 

If those are the criteria, then the AH64 is probably the best :P

 

But there's a lot of ways to define the best, which is what my point was :)

[AlphaOneSix]

I'm asking since in the Ka-50 you constantly have to trim for yaw, and thus I was wondering wether the same was the case in the Apache, if not that would reduce work load.

 

I think you're asking if the pilot flying an AH-64 is required to manually maintain the aircraft in trim, to which the answer is yes. Of course, if the aircraft is flying at a constant attitude, heading, and altitude, then the pilot could remove their feet from the pedals for a while.

[Hummingbird]

I think you're asking if the pilot flying an AH-64 is required to manually maintain the aircraft in trim, to which the answer is yes. Of course, if the aircraft is flying at a constant attitude, heading, and altitude, then the pilot could remove their feet from the pedals for a while.

 

Yeah basically I was wondering wether it featured auto trim in yaw. I think Sikorsky's new military chopper will feature this.

[Bushmanni]

One seemingly logical way to define the criteria for the best attack helicopter would be to consider dealt damage vs. taken damage in a scenario of modern armored task forces (with all the expected support assets) doing sustained battle and the said helicopter providing support. This will consider not only killing capability but also survival, maintainability and integration with supported forces. Apache ranks high in every one of these categories except (maybe) maintainability. Apache ties directly into fire support network and can request an artillery fire mission on a TADS target with a few button pushes. All the previous Apache models have been hangar queens but E model supposedly has been improved in this regard but I don't know how much.

 

If we want include also cost then we should set a fixed sum of money that is used to buy as many choppers as possible with enough money spared to maintain the fleet throughout the combat scenario. The initial amount of money is large enough that you can buy at least 20 units of the most expensive chopper (AH-64E). The size of the armored task force should be large enough that the chopper force can't single handedly decide the battle but needs to operate alongside the ground forces so that performance differences are more evident.

 

When you don't include money factors you compare the absolute performance, ie. a big bad expensive chopper gets rated better than small cheap cost efficient one (if it exists). In real life you always need to consider cost benefit ratio as no one has bottomless pockets full of money.

[Hummingbird]

These are the rough unit prices I could find.

 

Mi-28N = ~17 million $

Ka-52 = ~16 million $

AH-64E = ~65 million $

EC665 = ~35 miilion $

 

The Russian choppers seem suspiciously cheap.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Hummingbird
Corrected EC665 price

[Bushmanni]

Not necessarily. Choppers tend to be cheap in relation to fighters as they are smaller and have less complex avionics. AH-64E starts to approach fighters in its avionics complexity though. There's also the question of how the prices were calculated ie. if they are calculated the same way. Some kind of US government report stated unit price for AH-64E as 35 million but how that price was calculated was unclear. But regardless I would expect it to be much more expensive than any other attack chopper simply due to it carrying so much hi-tech electronics compared to any of its rivals.

 

One thing I forgot about my evaluation scenario. The idea is that it represents some kind of worst case scenario as you might do just as well with a lesser chopper in a easy scenario like COIN.

 

There's also the chopper vs chopper deathmatch scenario for evaluation which would be simple and straightforward way to find the "best" but that's not what the attack choppers exists for so it's kind irrelevant metric. That setup would probably give victory to AH-1Z if it can carry AIM-9X on top of AGM-114L. I'm not sure about that though. If there are other helicopters that can carry A-A missiles with imaging IR seekers then those would be strong contenders also and it would be more about sensors and who gets the first shot off.

[Hummingbird]

Of course there's also the salary of the workers who have to make the aircraft, I would imagine that has a big influence as well and could be part of the explanation for why the Russian choppers are so much cheaper.

 

I say this because eventhough the Apache probably is the most advanced attack helicopter out there I can't see the extra avionics features tripling the price.

[COMThing]

Of course there's also the salary of the workers who have to make the aircraft, I would imagine that has a big influence as well and could be part of the explanation for why the Russian choppers are so much cheaper.

 

I say this because eventhough the Apache probably is the most advanced attack helicopter out there I can't see the extra avionics features tripling the price.

 

The Apache itself is fair bit cheaper than that (I think somewhere around $40m), the price goes up to ~$65m when you ask for the Longbow radar to be added. Don't ask me why the radar is so expensive though, I'm just going off memory.

[OutOnTheOP]

The Apache itself is fair bit cheaper than that (I think somewhere around $40m), the price goes up to ~$65m when you ask for the Longbow radar to be added. Don't ask me why the radar is so expensive though, I'm just going off memory.

 

When you start adding radars with resolutions that can not only see tanks, but type-identify them, you *expect* a pretty hefty bump in price. Not all -Es have the radar, though.

[PiedDroit]

Pretty sure it is turret mounted, but it isn't as accurate as the Apache system.

 

I would give it to the AH-64E. Longbow radar, most proven AGM, plus APKWS II, then you have future capabilities/potential on the horizon such as JAGM and maybe even Brimstone II fit. Flight profile also gives me much more confidence over Vikhr. It's APKWS II that really makes the difference right now though. So much more effective than standard rockets. Turns a spam salvo into 38 direct hits an separate vehicles.

FWIW, France has a guided rocket like APKWS (since 2014 I think), it's called RPM (Roquette à Précision Métrique).

It should be mounted on helis and also on M-2000D's.

Edited June 14, 2016 by PiedDroit

[COMThing]

When you start adding radars with resolutions that can not only see tanks, but type-identify them, you *expect* a pretty hefty bump in price. Not all -Es have the radar, though.

 

Yeah, isn't it something like 1 in 4 US Apaches use the Longbow?

 

I remember reading a youtube argument where one guy stated the Ka-52 is superior to the -64E for that reason, along with doctrine limiting the loadout to 2 AGM-114Ls per heli with the rest being laser-guided. Of course, being a youtube argument, I'm not sure how accurate those statements are.

[Emu]

FWIW, France has a guided rocket like APKWS (since 2014 I think), it's called RPM (Roquette à Précision Métrique).

It should be mounted on helis and also on M-2000D's.

I've heard of SYROCOT but never actually seen one operational. With 8 ATGMs you're limited to 2x12 SNEB pods though.

[PiedDroit]

I've heard of SYROCOT but never actually seen one operational. With 8 ATGMs you're limited to 2x12 SNEB pods though.

After a quick search I found that SYROCOT and RPM (a. k. a. RIGL - Roquette à induction guidée laser) are two different products.

SYROCOT is from SNEB and RPM is from TDA (both are French manufacturs). No idea which one equips who.

[Emu]

France uses SNEB, so I assume they're for the same rocket, bit like GATR and APKWS.

[pepin1234]

This

 

[Heli]

AH-64E

-situational awareness

-network

-UAV control capability

-Fire Control Radar & Radar Frequency Interferometer

-AGM-114L & AGM-114N, AGM-114R

-APKWS II

-optimal gun's power

-IHADDS 21

-CIRCM (in nearly future)

-JAGM (in nearly future)

-over 20 years war in the Middle East

-Improved Turbine Engine Program (in far future)

-ship-based experience

-...

Edited June 16, 2016 by Heli

[Hummingbird]

If someone could do a photoshop translation of this that would be pretty sweet ;)

 

[Hummingbird]

In terms of pilots protection I do believe the Mi-28 probably takes the prize:

 

Apache:

 

Mi-28:

[Darkbrotherhood7]

In my opinion, the best heavy weight attack helicopter is the AH-64E for the reasons already mentioned here.

 

Best medium attack helicopter, Airbus Tiger maybe? AH-1Z?

I'd like the T-129 but I not sure how good it is.

[pepin1234]

If someone could do a photoshop translation of this that would be pretty sweet ;)

 

 

This 30mm cannon punch well. This cannon can destroy a light armor. Ka-52 and Mi-28 are the only to do such things with cannon. Also the performance of Vikhr missile at low altitud is really good. The avionic for both have become updated.

[SimFreak]

Which ever chopper that can carry best anti-tank weapon(Hellfire). What other missile lets you choose flight parameters and weight only 100 pounds? There is a tank in the open? I'll choose high profile to hit top of armor. Tank hiding under a tree? I'll choose direct profile. Hiding under overhead with only little bit showing? Low profile - I choose you. Vehicle driving with high speed and weaving all over place? Yep - Hellfire can assist easily.

[QuiGon]

Which ever chopper that can carry best anti-tank weapon(Hellfire). What other missile lets you choose flight parameters and weight only 100 pounds? There is a tank in the open? I'll choose high profile to hit top of armor. Tank hiding under a tree? I'll choose direct profile. Hiding under overhead with only little bit showing? Low profile - I choose you. Vehicle driving with high speed and weaving all over place? Yep - Hellfire can assist easily.

 

UHT Tiger with PARS 3 LR can do that too. ;)

It can also fire 4 missiles at 4 different targets simultaneously.

[Emu]

In my opinion, the best heavy weight attack helicopter is the AH-64E for the reasons already mentioned here.

 

Best medium attack helicopter, Airbus Tiger maybe? AH-1Z?

AH-1Z weighs more than an Apache.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1Z_Viper

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache

[Emu]

Which ever chopper that can carry best anti-tank weapon(Hellfire). What other missile lets you choose flight parameters and weight only 100 pounds?

Brimstone II.:D

 

UHT Tiger with PARS 3 LR can do that too. ;)

It can also fire 4 missiles at 4 different targets simultaneously.

Apache can do 16 simultaneously.:)

Edited June 17, 2016 by Emu