TM Warthog users, is the axes blending problem a big deal?

[Lymark]

Got my Warthog for a few days now, still haven't played with it much as I'm building a table mount for it, and I want my first hand experience to be as good as possible(Got an extension and planning on sanding and lubing).

 

Was reading some posts and found out that there're some flaws on the ball gimbal. The one that I concerned the most is the axes blending issue. It sounds bad and seems like something that cannot be fixed. However, I wonder if it's really that big of a deal in reality when you're trying to perform some precision aiming and movements, esp. on WWII planes as I fly them the most?

 

Side question: I've calibrated my stick with the calibration tools, went to TARGET device analyzer, and I'm having a hard time getting the stick all the way to 10&2, 4&8 o'clock positions. I could get to x,y 65535 in 4&8 If I pull it with more force, but short of ~ 1-3000 in 10&2(So like, x 62000 y 3000 at 2'olock and x1500 y 1500 at 10). Not that I'd go that far, but I just wanna make sure that it's normal.

 

Thanks!

Edited June 19, 2016 by Lymark

[Sporg]

I think it is not so bad.

 

I think that what people are referring to, is not a deficiency in precision, rather it is that apparently it could be difficult to develop proper muscle memory to the stick's movement.

This is due to it being the same spring that holds the stick on both axis.

 

I have not had problems however, and I fly warbirds a lot. Helicopters too.

[some1]

I only read that this is an issue for some people of this forum after several years of using a warthog myself. It's been the same in most other joysticks I've been using and can't really understand how a joystick with separate detent on X and Y axis would be better. It's not realistic either.

 

Anyway, you shouldn't put the joystick too far to the side. The further it is from center, the harder it is to move in the proper direction. Sidestick with and extension is a no-go (tried that).

[SinusoidDelta]

I think it's a matter of opinion. I've complained about it more than once due to the F-15 having an aileron rudder interconnect. As the stick is moved aft, the ARI supplies an increasing amount of rudder deflection when roll is applied. An easy way to see the issue is to perform a control surface check on the ground while looking at the rudder. Pull the stick pure aft and watch the rudder. The rudder should not move. If it does move you are adding roll unintentionally. Up in the air that rudder deflection induces a roll when attempting to maneuver only in the vertical. The harder you pull back on the stick, the large the induced roll becomes. When I had the warthog I had the controls indicator up 95% of the time trying to keep the dot on the cross.

[Sporg]

Thanks SinusoidDelta, that makes sense.

 

Just tested it on my stick, and you are right, it is difficult to keep it in the middle at full aft deflection, without some sort of external indication.

[aaron886]

I only read that this is an issue for some people of this forum after several years of using a warthog myself. It's been the same in most other joysticks I've been using and can't really understand how a joystick with separate detent on X and Y axis would be better. It's not realistic either.

 

Backwards. It is more realistic. Nobody builds a real aircraft with a ball joint for the stick. The problem is that Saitek and Thrustmaster own the sim flight control market and prefer cheap solutions to quality ones. Also explains why it's like the other sticks you've used...

[hansangb]

I hope Milan jumps in with a better gimbal for TM. Problem solved! :) If it's half the quality of his rudder, I'll be very happy with it. And I can't wait to try out his TM stick extension mods.

[some1]

Backwards. It is more realistic. Nobody builds a real aircraft with a ball joint for the stick. .

 

Nobody builds them with center detent either, that's why I said it's not realistic. You can see the cams and springs in the real mechanism, but these, if present, are part of a bigger artificial feel system. Don't kid yourself into thinking that the cams themselves make a joystick feel more real. Nicer maybe.

 

I also flew a pretty expensive professional sim with a motorized force sensing sidestick from the real aircraft. If my memory serves me right, the axes were blended there too, no distinct X-Y separation. That was a civilian aircraft with FBW though, so maybe it was good enough for the purpose.

 

Btw, must be damn hard to fly those F-16 with all those axes blending from immovable stick (yeah yeah, I know, it moves, just a bit). :)

[SinusoidDelta]

The F-16 has something like 1.5lb breakout on each axis. I don't see how that is even relevant here because it's (near as makes no difference) a fixed stick. Doesn't that make it self centering ;)? I also would argue that F–15 is self centering. The stick always returns to the same center position. The only time the stick will move from its hands off center position is if the pilot commands trim. There is a breakout force from the dead band (or center position) of something like 7.5 N before any aircraft response.

 

And of course there is never going to be a flight sim stick that's accurate to real life. My point is a stick should allow you to fly the simulated aircraft in a realistic manner. The warthog does not allow that IMO.

Edited June 22, 2016 by SinusoidDelta

[hansangb]

The F-16 has something like 1.5lb breakout on each axis. I don't see how that is even relevant here because it's (near as makes no difference) a fixed stick. Doesn't that make it self centering ;)? I also would argue that F–15 is self centering. The stick always returns to the same center position. The only time the stick will move from its hands off center position is if the pilot commands trim. There is a breakout force from the dead band (or center position) of something like 7.5 N before any aircraft response.

 

And of course there is never going to be a flight sim stick that's accurate to real life. My point is a stick should allow you to fly the simulated aircraft in a realistic manner. The warthog does not allow that IMO.

 

 

More so than lack of *real* flight dynamics? No consumer sim can keep up with the calculations needed to depict true flight, right? So it comes down to: is it good enough? And as you pointed out, no sim stick will ever match military joysticks. So if you throw out the notion that you can achieve perfect replica, Thrustmaster sounds better and better.

 

While I want a better gimbal, I'm glad they went cheaper there than the buttons. I like the tactile (and supposedly the same as the real deal) feedback of the buttons.

 

Gimbals and the inner wiring are the weakness of TM Warthog. But I still prefer it over all other joysticks that I tried (except for Huey where I use Komodo stuff)

[SinusoidDelta]

Like I said, it's a matter of opinion. I don't follow you on the flight dynamics argument. And the warthog switch are IMO very poor quality.

[hansangb]

Like I said, it's a matter of opinion. I don't follow you on the flight dynamics argument. And the warthog switch are IMO very poor quality.

 

Do you mean from the wiring perspective (very poor indeed) or do you mean from tactile feedback. I find that clicking around with TM is pretty satisfying.

 

The other argument isn't important. I was just saying that (as you stated) you can't get the perfect sim that replicates every detail.

[Bearfoot]

While I want a better gimbal, I'm glad they went cheaper there than the buttons. I like the tactile (and supposedly the same as the real deal) feedback of the buttons.

 

The hat switches on the WH stick are OK. But the buttons on the stick are horrendously mushy. Even the much cheaper X-55 has a much nicer tactile "click" to the buttons.

[hansangb]

That's odd. My stick feels perfectly fine. And it's not brand new either.

[SinusoidDelta]

Do you mean from the wiring perspective (very poor indeed) or do you mean from tactile feedback. I find that clicking around with TM is pretty satisfying.

 

The other argument isn't important. I was just saying that (as you stated) you can't get the perfect sim that replicates every detail.

 

I agree with you on the wiring. I was amazed to find masking tape haphazardly placed in the stick grip to control wire routing.

 

I meant overall quality though. The switches and buttons have an unacceptable failure rate. We should create a poll to see how many TM Warthog owners have not had a switch fail. My first switch failed within four months of owning it. Whats worse is thrustmaster seems to have incorporated the high failure rate into their business model and will just send you another one of the clearly defective switches to install yourself..... on product that is still in warranty and you cost $400.

 

As far as feeling/efforts IMO the switches are inconsistent. The warthog may be licensed by the USAF but not one of the switches are Mil-Spec. The 2-POS toggle switches on the throttle have way more snap than needed....they give off a sound like a bull whip. The left throttle toggle switch has almost zero snap and hangs all the time until it finally breaks. The cursor is a basically useless. The red left throttle button takes too much force to depress with your pinky. Any push button on the stick has the same story. They're all the same part with a different housing and they all wear out too fast.

 

Sorry for the rant. And again, this is all just my opinion.

[hansangb]

If you can believe it, I actually forgot to click the controls on a real A10 when I had the chance. Argh. I was always curious how "real" the controls were in terms of force needed. Like you said, TM claims it's the same as the real thing.

 

Next time, I'll try to remember :)

[Bearfoot]

That's odd. My stick feels perfectly fine. And it's not brand new either.

 

I do not think it is a problem with new/old. I just think it is that way by design. I am sure it feels fine when compared to other TMWH buttons, but I guess, as far as tactile feedback goes, I have felt way, way, way, way better.

 

I am referring specifically to the red button on the top front of the stick, the grey button on the right side of the stick, the grey pinky button, and the button under the lever. That is, all the push buttons on the stick. If it was just one, I'd put it down to a defect. But all of them have this soft, mushiness to them. Instead of a nice sharp click in response to firm pressure, with even resistance all the way, I have to mash them down with increasing force till the switches engage with a unsatisfying, tepid softness barely perceptible over the pushing action. Moreover, the red button on the top needs too much force, IMHO, to engage. I guess it all comes down to what you are used to/expect.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Bearfoot

[aaron886]

Nobody builds them with center detent either, that's why I said it's not realistic. You can see the cams and springs in the real mechanism, but these, if present, are part of a bigger artificial feel system. Don't kid yourself into thinking that the cams themselves make a joystick feel more real. Nicer maybe.

You don't see a roller cam in a real aircraft's flight controls used in this way either, it's just the most efficient way to reproduce a similar feel in a smaller package. (Not just a nicer feel.) In real life, things get much more complicated and engineered, with bobweights and feel springs and even hydraulic feedback. It takes up a lot of space.

 

I also flew a pretty expensive professional sim with a motorized force sensing sidestick from the real aircraft. If my memory serves me right, the axes were blended there too, no distinct X-Y separation. That was a civilian aircraft with FBW though, so maybe it was good enough for the purpose.

My experience in military flight simulators with sticks does not match yours, then. The vast majority of stick aircraft, especially fighter aircraft with centersticks or anything not fly-by-wire, have control axes separated. A fly-by-wire sidestick is pretty much the one exception where you might see it. Consider this: any aircraft with direct mechanical linkage/reversion is rigged this way. It's difficult to reliably connect cables and push-rods any other way. (Usually looks like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/Pretzel/IMGP1152.jpg)

 

I'm guessing the simulator you were in was Airbus... check it out, separate axes there, too: http://www.berkelaarmrt.com/images/gallery/AirbusSidesticks/gallery/DSC01767.jpg I'm not saying it will feel stiff or "clicky." That would be bad. That's what Saitek and Thrustmaster get you. A precision-milled cam does not, even though it might appear that it would! My Viper RX pedals from Slaw have a flawless center that's only barely noticeable. It's a huge improvement over CH's stiff center or Saitek's mushy one.

 

The problem is the creation of a precise stick force gradient. With a ball joint, your options quickly become directed toward radial tension, instead of axial tension. That means if I deflect half left-stick and then move the stick through the full pitch range, I'll have a sloppy pitch response and inconsistent roll tension. That's what the TM Warthog does.

 

Look, I know it's not that serious. I just want the best I can get! hasangb isn't wrong, price becomes a serious driver. But if it's not, don't bother with Thrustmaster and Saitek. :D If you're serious about PC flight sims for long enough, you'll start getting fed up with bad controls. I'm looking forward to trading out my Warthog for something from VKB, even though I'll probably keep the Warthog grip for the layout.

Edited June 24, 2016 by aaron886

[hansangb]

 

--snippage--

 

Look, I know it's not that serious. I just want the best I can get! hasangb isn't wrong, price becomes a serious driver. But if it's not, don't bother with Thrustmaster and Saitek. :D If you're serious about PC flight sims for long enough, you'll start getting fed up with bad controls. I'm looking forward to trading out my Warthog for something from VKB, even though I'll probably keep the Warthog grip for the layout.

 

 

Yeah, it always comes down to money on producer and consumer side. That's why I'm thankful there are boutique solutions. And why I have MFG rudders, and Komodo for Huey/Gazelle.

 

I'm happy enough with TM Warthog, but would trade in the gimbal in a second if MFG's of the world made one. VKB as well, but I'm lazy so I want to maintain the plug-n-play of TM Warthog if I can :D

[Deezle]

I agree with you on the wiring. I was amazed to find masking tape haphazardly placed in the stick grip to control wire routing.

 

I meant overall quality though. The switches and buttons have an unacceptable failure rate. We should create a poll to see how many TM Warthog owners have not had a switch fail. My first switch failed within four months of owning it. Whats worse is thrustmaster seems to have incorporated the high failure rate into their business model and will just send you another one of the clearly defective switches to install yourself..... on product that is still in warranty and you cost $400.

 

As far as feeling/efforts IMO the switches are inconsistent. The warthog may be licensed by the USAF but not one of the switches are Mil-Spec. The 2-POS toggle switches on the throttle have way more snap than needed....they give off a sound like a bull whip. The left throttle toggle switch has almost zero snap and hangs all the time until it finally breaks. The cursor is a basically useless. The red left throttle button takes too much force to depress with your pinky. Any push button on the stick has the same story. They're all the same part with a different housing and they all wear out too fast.

 

Sorry for the rant. And again, this is all just my opinion.

I have hundreds of hours on mine in the last year and a half and all of the buttons, hats, and switches still work fine. I had one wire break at a solder joint but that was an easy fix. IMO it is priced higher than it's quality, but it's not a junk pile.

[MostlyHarmless]

I agree with you on the wiring. I was amazed to find masking tape haphazardly placed in the stick grip to control wire routing.

 

I meant overall quality though. The switches and buttons have an unacceptable failure rate. We should create a poll to see how many TM Warthog owners have not had a switch fail. My first switch failed within four months of owning it. Whats worse is thrustmaster seems to have incorporated the high failure rate into their business model and will just send you another one of the clearly defective switches to install yourself..... on product that is still in warranty and you cost $400.

 

As far as feeling/efforts IMO the switches are inconsistent. The warthog may be licensed by the USAF but not one of the switches are Mil-Spec. The 2-POS toggle switches on the throttle have way more snap than needed....they give off a sound like a bull whip. The left throttle toggle switch has almost zero snap and hangs all the time until it finally breaks. The cursor is a basically useless. The red left throttle button takes too much force to depress with your pinky. Any push button on the stick has the same story. They're all the same part with a different housing and they all wear out too fast.

 

Sorry for the rant. And again, this is all just my opinion.

 

The wiring is not a terrible thing that I've found so far, I had to rewire my stick base after the wires were pinched when the previous owner had it fall off a desk and break the articulation sphere. The failure was not something that it would have ever seen in normal operations. That said I'm yet to see a manufacture who has perfect quality control so I can understand that thrustmaster might not have it all together either since I have had CH and Saitek wire problems in the past.

 

As far as the switches on the throttle go I'm curious what you have as experience on it. Switch activation can be a very subjective thing to discuss as everyone has their preference on it and different way to describe the tactile experiance. I would describe the 3 position boat switch and the momentary 3 position hat switch on the right throttle as both needing less than half the force required by the actual switches on the A-10A throttle and the same model of switches used on the AH-64A collective. My take is that they need more snap force to properly replicate the real thing. The toggle switch on the left throttle is also requires less than half the force as the real one so we are in agreement there. I would describe the red pinkie switch on the left throttle as also requiring less force than the real one but it is a bit different how it actuates. The actual switch requires pressure to build with no movement then snaps down while the Thrustmaster switch is just mushy as it depresses slowly as pressure increases. The switches on the base generally all require more force than the corresponding thrustmaster switches save for the landing gear warning silence button that requires less effort on the real aircraft. All in all TM has it much closer to reality than CH ever has, I cringe when I think of the incredibly small amount of force required to use the buttons on my fighterstick.

 

My biggest issue is that after rebuilding the broken warthog I bought with a new articulation sphere I had to go and rebuild it a second time with the original because it placed the magnet in the wrong place ever so slightly and wouldn't give full deflections. Even then I have the aft left and right corners that I loose stick back deflection as I go side to side. This along with the twisting play in my stick has me thinking the throttle is the best part and that is the part that I have an actual A-10 throttle to replace. Going to have to build up a new stick base to use the warthog grip with to really solve my issues with the joystick portion.

Edited June 24, 2016 by MostlyHarmless

[some1]

 

I'm guessing the simulator you were in was Airbus... check it out, separate axes there, too: http://www.berkelaarmrt.com/images/gallery/AirbusSidesticks/gallery/DSC01767.jpg I'm not saying it will feel stiff or "clicky." That would be bad. That's what Saitek and Thrustmaster get you. A precision-milled cam does not, even though it might appear that it would! My Viper RX pedals from Slaw have a flawless center that's only barely noticeable. It's a huge improvement over CH's stiff center or Saitek's mushy one.

 

Nope, it was one of the modern bizjets. Airbus stick isn't motorized, actually it's the closest thing to our desktop joysticks without FFB.

 

Anyway, I think you've misunderstood my post and focused on one thing for the sake of the argument. I'm not claiming that Thrustmaster solution is better or it feels like a real aircraft, just pointing out that it's not such a big problem and the use of cams doesn't make the joystick automatically better (though you can build a better joystick than Thrustmaster did, that's for sure). I have Slaw rudder with damper mod and I know what a good cam can do, and what it can't.

 

BTW, I have TMHW from the first batch and no single issue with buttons. Though maybe Thrustmaster quality degraded over time.

[SinusoidDelta]

The wiring is not a terrible thing that I've found so far, I had to rewire my stick base after the wires were pinched when the previous owner had it fall off a desk and break the articulation sphere. The failure was not something that it would have ever seen in normal operations. That said I'm yet to see a manufacture who has perfect quality control so I can understand that thrustmaster might not have it all together either since I have had CH and Saitek wire problems in the past.

 

As far as the switches on the throttle go I'm curious what you have as experience on it. Switch activation can be a very subjective thing to discuss as everyone has their preference on it and different way to describe the tactile experiance. I would describe the 3 position boat switch and the momentary 3 position hat switch on the right throttle as both needing less than half the force required by the actual switches on the A-10A throttle and the same model of switches used on the AH-64A collective. My take is that they need more snap force to properly replicate the real thing. The toggle switch on the left throttle is also requires less than half the force as the real one so we are in agreement there. I would describe the red pinkie switch on the left throttle as also requiring less force than the real one but it is a bit different how it actuates. The actual switch requires pressure to build with no movement then snaps down while the Thrustmaster switch is just mushy as it depresses slowly as pressure increases. The switches on the base generally all require more force than the corresponding thrustmaster switches save for the landing gear warning silence button that requires less effort on the real aircraft. All in all TM has it much closer to reality than CH ever has, I cringe when I think of the incredibly small amount of force required to use the buttons on my fighterstick.

 

My biggest issue is that after rebuilding the broken warthog I bought with a new articulation sphere I had to go and rebuild it a second time with the original because it placed the magnet in the wrong place ever so slightly and wouldn't give full deflections. Even then I have the aft left and right corners that I loose stick back deflection as I go side to side. This along with the twisting play in my stick has me thinking the throttle is the best part and that is the part that I have an actual A-10 throttle to replace. Going to have to build up a new stick base to use the warthog grip with to really solve my issues with the joystick portion.

 

:shocking: Those amphenol connectors! Those would cost me a small fortune.

 

My experience is on the civilian side. Specifically the automotive sector where measuring/defining customer efforts are a large part of the engineering process. Hence the reason I'm overly critical when judging components that may be somewhat trivial to most consumers.

[tommytank]

For me, the Warthog is a great stick but it's pretty bespoke for the A10-c and bought functionality rather than precision, and if you don't mount it rigidly, you may as well use a gamepad!

 

I've just received my Monstertech Mount and it's a gamechanger!

 

Get the Black Mamba base and you'll feel the two separate axis but the blending has never bothered me!

[Sokol1_br]

The "Opera resume" can be:

 

Warthog (A-10) joystick, perfect as F/A-18 Hornet "feel simulator", but not exactly perfect for control flight in DCS F-15's computer game. :D