FC3 missiles early pursuit

[JunMcKill]

Prove me wrong.

 

There are videos online of F-16 in the Gulf war, escaping from ground SARH missiles and in the cockpit sounds you hear nothing but the lock bleep, the only way they know that was launched was visually by the WSO.

 

I will not post again here and waste my time with the answers of GG, that always have a justification for everything in order to defend DCS world, the last time I posted one, told me that was because the missile was an old SA-2 LOL!! find them in youtube please

[red_coreSix]

There are videos online of F-16 in the Gulf war, escaping from ground SARH missiles and in the cockpit sounds you hear nothing but the lock bleep, the only way they know that was launched was visually by the WSO.

 

I will not post again here and waste my time with the answers of GG, that always have a justification for everything in order to defend DCS world, the last time I posted one, told me that was because the missile was an old SA-2 LOL!! find them in youtube please

 

The SA-2 does not use SARH. Many SAMs don't. How do you know it was SARH? Even then, I've seen videos of SA-2 launches generating missile launch warnings in F-16s.

[GGTharos]

How do you know what you're hearing?

 

Not only are most RWRs classified, but there's unclass media out there very clearly showing that much, much older (and at least one modern) RWR will give you launch indications vs. an SA-2 operated using full system lock etc. Better yet, it is very clearly shown that each of the SA-2's radars are picked up and treated separately, as is the missile command uplink.

However, the operators didn't always use the full capabilities - a lot of missiles were launched on a ballistic trajectory towards their targets.

 

You could have learned a lot by doing a little research or asking better questions instead of holding up a single video as some irrefutable proof of what an RWR can or cannot do and then claiming that your time is being wasted :)

 

There are videos online of F-16 in the Gulf war, escaping from ground SARH missiles and in the cockpit sounds you hear nothing but the lock bleep, the only way they know that was launched was visually by the WSO.

[JunMcKill]

The SA-2 does not use SARH. Many SAMs don't. How do you know it was SARH? Even then, I've seen videos of SA-2 launches generating missile launch warnings in F-16s.

 

The principle is the same, the ground radar lock the target, and is radio commanded, the RWR should detect the guidance isn't it? thats is we were talking or not? the missile warning were locks (like the ones of DCS with the same pitch tone), and dont tell me the F-16 RWR of the late 80s is classified GG, come on, many countries have F_16, including Venezuela and others that could transfered the technology to Russia long time ago.

Edited August 9, 2016 by JunMcKill

[GGTharos]

Then go ahead and find the appropriate TO ... you can find -34's for the F-16, but if you can find the appropriate -34 supplement we'll all love you forever.

 

and dont tell me the F-16 RWR of the late 80s is classified GG, come on, many countries have F_16, including Venezuela and others that could transfered the technology to Russia long time ago.

[OverStratos]

Then go ahead and find the appropriate TO ... you can find -34's for the F-16, but if you can find the appropriate -34 supplement we'll all love you forever.

 

I think that will be kind of hard?:music_whistling:

 

 

This is a complex subject, from both sides. First, not all S75 systems are the same, and second, a SA-2 misile fired at you using the optic channel will warn you when it hit you.

 

At first (years ago), Jun is right that all you where getting was a lock warning and anything else, but as time has passed and intelligence has been gathered it may not be the same again. Only modern SAMs (or updated ones) can enojoy that privilege.

[GGTharos]

Sorry but as far as SA-2 goes, it's very solidly demonstrated that an RWR will just pick it apart. You are correct, and I mentioned as well that there are ways to launch the missile which would give partial or incorrect indications, with a correspondingly lower Pk vs an aware target. This isn't in dispute and isn't the point.

 

And it's all a complete non-issue for highly automated AI radars, where the operator doesn't get a whole lot of choice in how the radar accomplishes things.

[Stuge]

All missile SARH and ARH relies in radar reflections, in the first case from the source aircraft radar, in the second case from his own radar, and all should be susceptible to chaff EM reflection

 

All are suspectible but the ARHs in the game quickly start scanning around after losing lock, thus reacquiring quickly. SARHs don't.

[Airmage]

Missile guidance uplinks can be brought into discussion only for vertical launched SAM's. This is done through separate guidance antennae, to help the missile enter the radar lock beam:

 

http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/Special%20Antenna%20Beams.en.html

 

Guidance antennae emmit a somehow directional beam towards the missile untill it receives the radar reflection. Jetfighters do not have directional guidance antennae, like the IFF antenna wich is linked to the radar. For data-linked missiles like AIM-120 they may use radio antenna, wich emitts on 360 deg, but in no way i believe this has anything to do with the target RWR.

 

For example, if 2 or more jets start guiding missiles towards different targets, how does one target identify the correct emitter for the incomming missile?

 

And this is for the last decade of technology or so. For the R-27 class of missiles, wich only pick a radar reflection, no way of such advanced guidance systems. Even for the AIM-120, this only applies in TWS i think, and has the purpose of delaying the target's suspicions. In case of STT, the target is already alert and goes deffensive.

 

So, i still must claim that SARH missiles DO NOT provide a launch warning. ARH missiles provide missile approach warning, but other than that, your eyes and intuition are the best launch detection warning.

[Airmage]

And now scrap all i said above. I just got confirmation from a retired MiG-29A pilot that even early versions of the mig have different tonalities for search, lock and launch. Mergh...

[GGTharos]

For those of you who are wondering about how some RWRs work(ed), here's an oldie:

 

[JunMcKill]

For those of you who are wondering about how some RWRs work(ed), here's an oldie:

 

 

Good video I thought that was an old Flash Gordon episode of the 30s! LOL

Edited August 10, 2016 by JunMcKill

[JunMcKill]

I think that will be kind of hard?:music_whistling:

 

 

This is a complex subject, from both sides. First, not all S75 systems are the same, and second, a SA-2 misile fired at you using the optic channel will warn you when it hit you.

 

At first (years ago), Jun is right that all you where getting was a lock warning and anything else, but as time has passed and intelligence has been gathered it may not be the same again. Only modern SAMs (or updated ones) can enojoy that privilege.

 

In fact we guess the F-16 maneuvering in the youtube video was against a SA-2E, the best missile platforms in Desert Storm, Allied Force and others were with SA-3 (same guidance than SA-2 with three shot down, and the F-117 in Serbia) and SA-6 (SARH, two shot down), the SA-2 (two) and MANPADS, other shot downs were with unknown launch platform.

 

But they were effective against older platform like F-4 and A-4:

 

"Yom Kippur War

 

The 2K12 surprised the Israelis in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. They were used to having air superiority over the battlefield. The highly mobile 2K12 took a heavy toll on the slower A-4 Skyhawk and even the F-4 Phantom, forming a protective umbrella until they could be removed. The radar warning receivers on the Israeli aircraft did not alert the pilot to the fact that he was being illuminated by the radar. Once the RWRs were reprogrammed and tactics changed, the 2K12 was no longer such a grave threat, but still caused heavy losses to Israeli aircraft."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K12_Kub

[Mandellorian]

It wasn`t really a reprogramming..it was a fairly significant hardware change,RWR of the time was more directed toward pulse threats not CW..to pick up CW you have to redesign the system..It would have been a lot more effective if the US hadn`t sent a large number of replacement F4`s with new weapons and systems and then had the instructors from Nellis flying them in combat for the IAF.

As for missile warning it depends on the system pure SARH is a bit of a rarity in the west these days,the AMRAAM having a datalink rather than relying on beam riding i suspect would make lock and launch detection a bit more problematic as the launching platform doesn`t have to constantly illuminate.

This probably explains the increase in Missile Approach Warning systems and UV flare detectors in more modern platforms.

[JunMcKill]

ARH reacquires much more easily than SARH. Probably because of its automatic search function in a large area. I think SARH missiles can only reacquire in a very narrow cone and even then the launch aircraft needs to have a solid lock as well.

 

I sincerely doubt that the solution given by ED in the MIG-29S TWS2 case is the real one, if you have to solid lock on one of the targets, how the other missile is guided to the second one? Is out of any logic, in fact the russian multitarget guidance should be like the american one, and dont need a solid lock to launch both R-77s

[GGTharos]

There's nothing but a two-second video available representing the user interface of 2TWS for the MiG-29S.

 

As for what's actually going on in-game with regard to lock tones etc, it's probably a bug, but a bug that might not be very easy to deal with.

[JunMcKill]

There's nothing but a two-second video available representing the user interface of 2TWS for the MiG-29S.

 

As for what's actually going on in-game with regard to lock tones etc, it's probably a bug, but a bug that might not be very easy to deal with.

 

Agree