Initial dogfighting tactics

[Dave317]

I've been trying to learn air to air combat recently and I'm not doing too well. Before the m2k module came along I was a strictly an air to ground and helicopter pilot. I've watched 'the art of the kill' a few times and I'm ok when I get into a fight but it's the first pass I have a problem with. Battles usually seem to start head on and I keep getting shot down by the bandit with his first missile. Assuming both aircraft are head on and only have ir missiles what is the best tactic for this situation with the mirage?

[myHelljumper]

With ir missile, shot first.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

For an IR missile, what you're really looking to do is defeat sensor nose. As his nose starts to come to bear on you, a couple of preemptive flares in the air, as well as pulling your throttle to idle and breaking into to the bandit to collapse the distance and give you some angles back on him will help defeat the missile. Once he shoots, put out flares until the missile starts to drift aft from your point of view, while you keep pulling into him. Once the missile looks like it's started to move, it's been spooked and is going somewhere else.

 

As for pulling your aircraft around for the fight. The Mirage likes to stay fast, you want to be around 0.85 Mach and full AB maintaining speed in your turn to get the best turn performance as a baseline. I wouldn't pull harder unless you're ready to shoot or getting shot.

 

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[Dave317]

I've tried shooting as soon as I'm in range but I nearly always get shot down by the enemy missile. I've tried getting to about 4.5 nm away then pulling a 90 degree turn while diving at the sane time. This seems to work reasonably well.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

If it's before the merge you are doing the right thing. Flares and being at idle will help get the missile off you. I try to keep the bandit defensive. Shoot while you're head to head as soon as the seeker head on the magic locks and you get tone. Make him have to react, even if you don't think it'll hit, it'll make him move first.

 

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[Dave317]

What range is considered merge?

[Pikey]

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-1289.pdf

This is a USN early BFM tactics guide for their Goshawk trainers.

 

There are several sets they perform in both roles that practice key objectives, it probably goes as advanced as we will ever need, there are more later for different airframes, so the manual alludes to. This is up to date dogfighting 101 courtesy of the gold old American Navy who are great at sharing.

 

I've got a mission with all the PADS setup for the different sets and we occasionally find time to practice them in F-5's and its very rewarding, despite me being utterly shiite at it.

[Pikey]

What range is considered merge?

Awacs defines it at 3nm, iirc.

For practicing, when you turn into the butterfly you need to maintain visual.

[Dave317]

Thank you. What does turn into the butterfly mean'?

[Xenovia]

turn fights in a Mirage are fun, and easy hehehe, giving your opponent a run for their money.

[Dfwtd]

I had the same problem and this videos helped me a lot... Beaming and Defensive Press are really usefull till you're in range

 

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Dfwtd

[Banjo]

I flew a couple quick fights which should help demonstrate how to fight and survive against another aircraft, both tracks are one mirage against one enemy with a heavy focus on notching the enemy.

 

This video should help understand the concept of notching -

and the rest of the videos in that particular playlist could be of use as well.

Mirage 2000c vs Flanker (Single) - 01.trk

Mirage 2000c vs Fulcrum (Single) - 01.trk

[gavagai]

Assuming both aircraft are head on and only have ir missiles what is the best tactic for this situation with the mirage?

 

It depends on the range. If you're both inside the no-escape zone then both of you should die before the merge most of the time. It doesn't matter who launches first.

 

If the range is longer then you could treat this situation as if you were launching Fox-3. Launch first, then turn away and hope you can out-run the missile or bleed its energy to the point that you can safely outmaneuver it (spamming flares of course).

Edited August 28, 2016 by gavagai
for punctuation and grammar!

[Sarge55]

Thank you. What does turn into the butterfly mean'?

 

I presume he means the merge turns into a "two circle" fight as opposed to a one circle fight.

 

Here is a link to sketch and brief description.

 

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-821/Figure-10-24-Two-Circle-Flow-Turn-Rate-Fight-259.htm

[Dave317]

That makes sense. Thanks for all the help so far. I'm going away for a week now but will get back on it when I return.

[Dave317]

I had a few one on one fights today starting off against an f4 then mig29 then onto the su27. I am to be getting a lot better at it after watching the videos and putting it all into practice. You can rely tell the difference between them. The su27 was extremely difficult to shake from my 6. Another question for everyone. What is the mirages optimum corner airspeed?

[Shadow_1stVFW]

I had a few one on one fights today starting off against an f4 then mig29 then onto the su27. I am to be getting a lot better at it after watching the videos and putting it all into practice. You can rely tell the difference between them. The su27 was extremely difficult to shake from my 6. Another question for everyone. What is the mirages optimum corner airspeed?

Depends on altitude, but roughly 0.85 Mach will give you you're highest turn rate.

 

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