To ED: In need of the secondary FFB device

[RazorbackNL]

Dear ED,

 

In the previous version 1.5.4.55584 it was still possible to have a secondary FFB device connected. After the latest update to 1.5.4.55952 this has been changed.

Would it be possible for me to copy a certain file which manages the availability of the secondary FFB device from the 55584 version into the 55952 version in order to still have the secondary FFB device available with the latest version of DCS?

 

I desperately need a secondary FFB device in order to overcome the trimming system for the helicopters.

I use a non-spring non-FFB selfmade floor mounted cyclic based on the HOTAS Cougar. Before version 1.5.4.55952 I could use the helicopter trim systems without the need to have to recenter the cyclic because this was overruled by the secondary FFB device.

 

I totally understand the DCS sim is evolving but some things better need to be left unchanged. The absence of the mentioned feature requires me to stick to 1.5.4.55584, which is a shame because of all the nice updates which are being done to the program.

 

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

Best regards,

Razorback

[RazorbackNL]

It surprises me that I haven't had a single reply yet. Is my request that hard?

[Cibit]

And you cant join in MP:eek:

Please fix this for my newly wedded friend so he can join in :thumbup:

 

Razorback if you need to try out files I can get on ts and see if I can help. It can only be an entry in an .LUA file I would hope:joystick:

PM me for assistance if needed

[tintifaxl]

The devs are only very seldom active in the forum. If none of the testers brings this to their attention, you'll never get a response.

[Penshoon]

If you don't have any springs on the stick, why do you need trim at all? For autopilot systems? Don't the ka-50 and mi-8 have a setting called something like non spring, non ffb trimming in the special tab of the settings menu just for sticks like yours?

[Cibit]

Is it working in 2.0? if so try swapping config folder from 2.0 to 1.5.4

or revert back to the working version. copy config, update and swap config folder. Worth a try pal

 

If you don't have any springs on the stick, why do you need trim at all? For autopilot systems? Don't the ka-50 and mi-8 have a setting called something like non spring, non ffb trimming in the special tab of the settings menu just for sticks like yours?

 

We fly hueys dude;)

[BIGNEWY]

I dont have force feedback, I was under the impression this had been resolved, I will enquire

 

have you tried 1.5.4.56500.155 ?

[Penshoon]

We fly hueys dude;)

Then why the need for trimming if the stick isn't spring centered? What am i missing?

Trim changes the virtual centered position for the stick but as op's physical doesn't have any springs it has no physical force center anyway? Just don't use trim for flight like the real Huey is mostly flown? I just don't see any benefit of using the artificial trim without springs?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Penshoon

[Cibit]

Then why the need for trimming if the stick isn't spring centered? What am i missing?

 

I have a similar setup and need trim during autorotation to get my nose up. Sometimes in slow flights even without springs it has benefits for me to have trim available mainly due to play in the centre postion. I guess because Razor is using 2xffb inputs it is causing him a particular issue

Appreciate the help though thanks:)

[Penshoon]

I have a similar setup and need trim during autorotation to get my nose up. Sometimes in slow flights even without springs it has benefits for me to have trim available mainly due to play in the centre postion. I guess because Razor is using 2xffb inputs it is causing him a particular issue

Appreciate the help though thanks:)

What play in center position? Without springs there is not center position in regards to forces? It should move freely throughout the axis? I use a FFB stick and spend 99% of my DCS time flying the Huey. 99% of the time I have force trim turned off as it makes flying so much easier and smoother. Having a force gradient limiting my stick motions is helpful in some situations sure but I think having a non linear response due to artificial trimming with a non spring stick would be much less intuitive overall.

[BIGNEWY]

Ok as far as I understand A request has been made for the UH-1H, like the mi-8 which uses this already.

 

I have no time frame, this is low priority at the moment.

 

Try disabling force trim in the UH-1H see if it helps as a work around.

 

let me know how you get on

[Penshoon]

Now I think i understand what Razorback means. He uses a ffb device plugged in to trick DCS into thinking he is using a ffb device and DCS then disables the artificial trimming method that aren't compatible with his non spring cyclic. But DCS has recently patched away this behavior as some people were complaining that they lost this artificial trimming method on their spring centered sticks when they had secondary ffb devices plugged in like racing pedals from a ffb steering wheels to control rudder.

 

I thought that simply checking the force feedback setting box would force this behavior regardless of device used but I guess DCS makes a lookup on the main connected joystick device driver before applying this trim behavior?

 

Maybe there is some way of forcing this through controls.lua file in saved games folder?

[RazorbackNL]

This is probably hard to understand if you do not have witnessed the behaviour yourself but I am gonna try to explain it. This is for helicopter flight only, most noticeable in the Huey.

 

My gear:

- a selfmade long throw floor mounted cyclic based on the HOTAS Cougar, no self-centering springs, hall effect sensors for X and Y axis

- a G27 steering wheel secondary FFB device, FFB checked in the options menu

 

The behaviour:

The 2 big advantages of having a secondary FFB device connected before the 55952 update were, according to my findings:

 

1) My cyclic became more responsive, which is a good thing flying helicopters. In comparision with the virtual cyclic the movement is 1:1. Without FFB, there is a latency between moving the real life (RL) cyclic and the virtual cyclic. The virtual cyclic responds slightly later to the RL cyclic,

making it harder to control the helicopter in a hover.

 

2) The default trimming system was overruled because of the connection of a secondary FFB device. Pressing the trim button did not require a fast recenter of the RL cyclic anymore in order to prevent the virtual cyclic jump behaviour.

Pressing and holding the trim button with the FFB device connected however did result in a temporary slightly less responsive behaviour of the RL cyclic (simulating the Force Trim system of the Huey), which was extremely welcome during landings and takeoffs. In this way I could stabilise the helicopter. This behaviour was less noticable in the Mi-8, probably because of the auto channels or a different trim system.

 

Connecting a secondary FFB device had a positive outcome when using a non-FFB joystick for helicopter flying. In the Ka-50 it means you can control the heading channel without the default trimming system kicking in.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Razorback[NL]

[RazorbackNL]

Now I think i understand what Razorback means. He uses a ffb device plugged in to trick DCS into thinking he is using a ffb device and DCS then disables the artificial trimming method that aren't compatible with his non spring cyclic. But DCS has recently patched away this behavior as some people were complaining that they lost this artificial trimming method on their spring centered sticks when they had secondary ffb devices plugged in like racing pedals from a ffb steering wheels to control rudder.

 

I thought that simply checking the force feedback setting box would force this behavior regardless of device used but I guess DCS makes a lookup on the main connected joystick device driver before applying this trim behavior?

 

Maybe there is some way of forcing this through controls.lua file in saved games folder?

 

You are spot on, Penshoon :)

I want that behaviour back in the latest updates of DCS because it changes the way of helicopter flight in DCS in a possitive manner. Downside is it indeed doesn't work with the fixed wings but I am more of a rotorhead anyway.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Razorback[NL]

[Penshoon]

Unique issue for sure! You use no curves for the y/x cyclic axis I guess? Weird how it changes your input response.

 

Hopefully the BIGNEWY can point someone at ED to this thread.

[RazorbackNL]

Unique issue for sure! You use no curves for the y/x cyclic axis I guess? Weird how it changes your input response.

 

Hopefully the BIGNEWY can point someone at ED to this thread.

 

 

No axis curves. I have been flying like this since the beginning of DCS.

[BIGNEWY]

Unique issue for sure! You use no curves for the y/x cyclic axis I guess? Weird how it changes your input response.

 

Hopefully the BIGNEWY can point someone at ED to this thread.

 

Do not worry, ED have seen this, and a feature request has been made to belsimtek. :)

 

It is a matter of being patient now, as it is low priority

[BillyCrusher]

;2906754']I want that behaviour back in the latest updates of DCS

 

It's impossible because it was major bug which make problem for many users.

A lot of users have regular non-FFB stick plus FFB pedals (G27 for example). Before last patches a bug was here: if any FFB device connected, all devices trimmer work as FFB (ie with force neutral shift). For now that issue is resolved. Input system recognize what kind of device (FFB or not) uses for pitch and roll axes and switch trimming method according to it.

Using joystick without FFB and spring it's very rare occasion but BST have already implement such trimmer option for Mi-8 and yesterday it was implemented for UH-1H as well. You can see description that mode here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2738654&postcount=667

This feature will added to public version after testing, no time frame yet.

[RazorbackNL]

It's impossible because it was major bug which make problem for many users.

A lot of users have regular non-FFB stick plus FFB pedals (G27 for example). Before last patches a bug was here: if any FFB device connected, all devices trimmer work as FFB (ie with force neutral shift). For now that issue is resolved.

For all these years DCS is on the market having a secondary FFB device connected wasn't a problem. It became a problem only recently. What made it work for so long and is now being thrown overboard?

 

 

Input system recognize what kind of device (FFB or not) uses for pitch and roll axes and switch trimming method according to it.

If I could somehow revered back to the old system, my problem would be solved. A simple JSGME mod could do the trick hopefully. Since I am not a coder I have no idea how to do this.

 

 

Using joystick without FFB and spring it's very rare occasion but BST have already implement such trimmer option for Mi-8 and yesterday it was implemented for UH-1H as well. You can see description that mode here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2738654&postcount=667

This feature will added to public version after testing, no time frame yet.

I have seen the new trimmer option for the Mi-8 but I cannot tell if it has a truly working trim function or if it is only a cosmetic feature, only to let you hear the trim sounds. This option would shine the most if you could get the chopper to stabilize when you would momentarily hold the trim button. It is good to know this feature is being worked on for the Huey. Will the Ka-50 and the Gazelle get this feature also eventually or is that out of you hands?

[BillyCrusher]

;2907325']For all these years DCS is on the market having a secondary FFB device connected wasn't a problem. It became a problem only recently. What made it work for so long and is now being thrown overboard?

 

It always was a problem. But users with secondary FFB device could disable FFB option in settings. From other side they had not possibility to use regular stick with modern aircraft and FFB-stick with piston aircraft and helicopters because the option applies to all devices simultaneous. For now input system made more flexible for most users. For specific rare cases (such as your no-FFB & no-spring device) special trimmer mode was implemented. I believe it will be done for Ka-50 as well but Gazelle is out our authority. You can ask Polychop for this feature.

[Penshoon]

Razorback, have you tried dual binding both your G27 & your Cougar axes to roll & pitch in controls? Maybe DCS FFB device detection of the G27 will take priority and overwrite the spring centered style trimming behavior if FFB in enabled in DCS settings?

 

Guess that could introduce spiking issues from G27 axes but that could maybe be fixed in Axis tune by reducing saturation to zero and adding 100% dead zone to only the G27 the axes?

[Penshoon]

I haven't tried it but maybe either software "UJR - Universal Joystick Remapper" or "Universal Control Remapper (UCR)" can be used to trick DCS into believing your Cougar is force feedback enabled by creating a FFB virtual stick that has it's axes bound to your HOTAS cougar axes?

[RazorbackNL]

Razorback, have you tried dual binding both your G27 & your Cougar axes to roll & pitch in controls? Maybe DCS FFB device detection of the G27 will take priority and overwrite the spring centered style trimming behavior if FFB in enabled in DCS settings?

 

Guess that could introduce spiking issues from G27 axes but that could maybe be fixed in Axis tune by reducing saturation to zero and adding 100% dead zone to only the G27 the axes?

 

OMG!!! You are my ambassador of quan!! That so did the job!! Thank you so much!! :thumbup:

Edited September 23, 2016 by Razorback[NL]

[Penshoon]

[BIGNEWY]

check today's patch :)