Anyone using a motion platform with VR?

[MacThai_75]

The viddy in post #21 is a semi-freeware version called SimTools and has DCS plugins.

I'm trying to get some info regarding if that means it will be as VR readyfor DCS as the one in that viddy is for racing, but in the meantime there is a whole group of VR sim drivers here ... https://www.xsimulator.net/community/forums/virtual-racing-league.59/

 

So I'm hopeful that it's as simple as just doing the plugin for DSC (and other flight sims) to be good to go.

 

I got my answer back form SimXperience.

Their kits will work with SimTools, no warranty impact if doing that, and you can use their SimVibe for driving transducers, in conjunction with using SimTools to drive their motion kits.

[mrsparks]

Nice thread & responses. I asked a similar question in https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=172381 for those interested.

 

I ended up going with the Atomic A3. Twenty-seven degrees of movement on each axis. Pedals, stick, and oculus camera can move with platform. Should arrive near the end of September. Excited to report results.

[DBO]

I ended up going with the Atomic A3. Twenty-seven degrees of movement on each axis. Pedals, stick, and oculus camera can move with platform. Should arrive near the end of September. Excited to report results.

 

Looks nice. How much did that set you back?

[misoswan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6dtUjBhBX8 built my self 3 dof platform

[MacThai_75]

For you guys that have them of have flown them ... what happens when you roll or loop.

Does it suddenly snap back as you virtually cross over the apex of the roll or loop, or ... well ... what just what the heck 'does' it do/feel like? :)

Edited September 14, 2016 by MacThai_75

[MostlyHarmless]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6dtUjBhBX8 built my self 3 dof platform

Your setup has definitely been an inspiration for me to start looking at building one myself. Do you have a build page for your platform? I would love to see more details on it!

[MacThai_75]

I ordered the Dynamic Kit, Pro version motion cockpit today, so I suppose it'll be here in 2 to 3 weeks (not sure about customs' time (???).

 

It's a full cockpit version that will move everything including the sensor for my CV1, and can carry up to a 330lb payload.

So I'm going to bolt my existing dual propose (flight and racing) seat and controls on it.

 

In the meantime I'll become familiar with SimTools and the DCS (and other) plugins for it.

 

I need to do more posts on the SimTools (XSimulator) site at https://www.xsimulator.net/community/ to gain these virtual"coins" thyey award you with for posting, so I don't have to pay for the tools or plug-ins I want to download from there, but it's a really interesting site for gaining info on VR and motion cockpits if looking to buy, or if building ... especially the info at https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/smc3-arduino-3dof-motor-driver-and-windows-utilities.4957/

[DBO]

^ Congrats! Exiting times. Keep us posted with your build. I for one would be very interested to hear your impressions on the kit.

[misoswan]

for my platform need 3 dof no only 2 dof (racing game ok) for flight need 3 dof (pitch ,roll,heave)

[MacThai_75]

for my platform need 3 dof no only 2 dof (racing game ok) for flight need 3 dof (pitch ,roll,heave)

 

Although there are a number of successful uses of 2Dof flight sim platforms that you can see by googling "Flight simulator platform with 2Dof" ... you could certainly argue you 'need' 6Dof.

For example ... to get yaw right you need a horizontal sliding system at the rear of the platform that tracks roll and pitch, so the yaw doesn't go around the center of a 2 or 3Dof seat.

 

You also need heave for racing (and not just rally sport where you get air ;)) as well as the sliding yaw for obvious reasons.

For flight you could argue you also need to be able to roll and pitch past 180 degrees to get it right, so when you get to 180 on a 3Dof platform, you don't just go back around to the other extreme and then back to level.

 

But how much do you want to spend, and how much more do you actually get ... and ultimately how practical is it all in your home?

 

But even more importantly ... read what SkateZilla had to say in this thread.

It took me some time to get my head around what he meant, and then by reading many different reports of people actually flying/driving on a motion platform with a CV1, to see how what he said impacted the experience.

 

Because the internal sensors on the CV1 (the accelerometer, the gyro, magnetometer and the IMU) provide rotational, linear and acceleration info that is used for tracking in addition to the tracking sensor, there is a bit of a burp that can take place during a flight or a race.

It seems that with these platforms 'and' the CV1 (I only looked at CV1 situations) you will need to periodically reset your view position.

It's not a lot and it is not consistent in the need to do it.

Sometimes you won't need to, and sometimes you will.

But as you add DoF you will need to more often because you have added another movement axis variable to the equation.

So at the significant increase in price ... are you getting more or just adding in another issue?

 

The G-seat demonstrates just how little total movement is needed to trick you into an immersive 'motion' experience (see the info on the G-seat posted earlier in this thread).

 

Some folks set their platforms up to have movement like a carnival ride, and from what I've read, this is a situation where less is actually better to have the nuances come through, but that's with respect to degrees of movement on an axis, as well as the speed that the change in movement comes at you.

You are still stuck with the exponential increase of complications added by the CV1 internal sensors unless you can find a way, or the program you use to run your platform has the way built in, to shut them off ... and consequently you lose some amount of tracking accuracy that may or may not be worse than needing to reset the view.

 

For me the best of capturing the point of diminishing return on investment is at a $1650 delivered 2Dof price point on a full cockpit platform that can carry 330lbs, and then possibly adding the G-Seat function ... which is totally CV1 internal sensor neutral.

 

It has been (and is) a learning process for me, and one factor in choosing the 2Dof besides it's price is that if I find I need heave and/or a sliding yaw, I can add it later as an option that this platform sits on, and is sold by other platform companies like SimXperience.

Sort'a like this ... http://simxperience.com/products/accessories/stageseriesupgrades/reartractionlosssimulation.aspx

 

Yaw (to me) is much more important than a true heave, because you already do have more of sense of heave in a 2DoF than you do of the needed degree of yaw that you don't get in either a 2 or 3 DoF that has heave instead of yaw.

So at an additional $1304 to get yaw later, it's still only at $3k for a full cockpit platform.

I didn't see any 3 DoF close to that price and they still didn't have a sliding yaw.

However, I'm not sure that if with the internal sensor of the CV1 issue, it might be less problematic to deal with heave than with yaw, because heave is linear and yaw is rotational. (so ... :dunno:)

 

So the amount of loss by shutting off the internal sensors might become a deciding factor.

My "feel" from reading the different comments/threads/reviews on VR and platforms is that I 'might' end up wanting yaw a lot, and it's importance would be placed above heave.

 

In any case ... it's good to be able to take it a step at a time with this 2DoF platform, and give doing a G-seat mod to it a try before I add any additional axis to it ... be it heave, yaw, sliding north/south/east/west, or doing full loops and rolls. ;)

Edited September 9, 2016 by MacThai_75

[WindyTX]

Where can you get the correct feed for the flying sensation. In a simulator as you move the stick it causes movement of the simulator but once you are in a coordunated turn the sim levels itself at a sub noticable threshold as the g force is straight down. Take the example of a car if you turn right the sim will roll left so you feel you are being thrown to the outside of the turn. In a 20 mill simulator it throws you around for changes of direction etc but then returns to level at a subliminal rate all the time to get ready for the next action. When you see a rejected take off the sim is about 40 degrees nose down. So back to my original question do we have the motion software available and is there a way to feed it from DCS. If there was I would happily cough up 3k.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

[MacThai_75]

Well although the software is available via programs like SimTools, as are the specific plug-ins for many different simulations and games including DCS, IMHO we are still in a TBD state until we get a bit more time to see exactly how specific it will be at mimicking true 6DoF with VR, and specifically the CV1.

 

Keep in mind, that especially WRT VR motion 'flight' cockpits ... this is all a fairly fast moving point (no pun intended).

 

That's why unless actually building a motion platform yourself, which is completely do-able, pretty economical, can go up to 6DoF, and fortunately the path is well "pre-blazed" at the sites I've listed in this thread, if you want to spend the time and have the skills to do it.

For a number of reasons at this point 'for me' the low cost, pre-built, up-gradable, entry level path makes the most sense.

A 2DoF and the G-seat will be my first route, and I'll add a yaw and possibly a heave system to it if I feel the need later.

 

But ... to better answer the question of what's available now, where to start, and how it all comes together, looking here would be a good starting point ...

 

Building it yourself ...

 

https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/smc3-arduino-3dof-motor-driver-and-windows-utilities.4957/

 

And/or if buying a prebuilt ...

 

https://www.xsimulator.net/simtools-complete-documentation/

 

And for a list of simulator/game plugins that SimTools has ....

 

https://www.xsimulator.net/simtools-motion-simulator-software/#plugins

 

Those are not the only options out there, but are a pretty good starting point that will probably dial you into the ball park very fast, and do a much better job of doing that than I certainly can. ;)

[MacThai_75]

BTW: After doing a lot of reading over the past few days regarding the intermittent need to recenter the CV1 when used on full cockpit motion platforms, I emailed Oculus to ask if the magnetometer in the CV1 HMD might be sending erroneous signals to the IMU due to the HMD's close proximity to all the metal that's used in those platforms ... especially the ones that use either, or both, a metal hoop in the headrest of the cockpit seat, and/or the ones that use the long vertical linear motion electrically activated actuators that are right behind the headrest of some motion platforms ... like the these:

 

And if so, can the magnetometer be turned off somehow.

 

They did provide this initial response this AM ...

 

 

 

Jaxon (Oculus Support)

Sep 10, 11:25 AM PDT

 

Hello,

 

Thank you for bringing this very interesting situation to our attention.

 

Please give us some time to look into it for you.

 

As soon as additional information is available, we will be sure to follow up with you as soon as we can.

 

Thanks for your patience.

 

Jaxon

Oculus Support

 

So if I get anything definitive back I'll post it.

Edited September 10, 2016 by MacThai_75

[Macka]

I have been using the Simxperience motion with DCS and other sims for over 4 years now. I have the one pictured above in MacThai's post with an obutto seat fixed to it. I was involved in the testing and dev for converting Simtools for use with the simXperience scn 5 actuators. When using the CV1 rift I have the sensor placed stationary on my desk and it feels perfectly natural when flying. And have have not noticed any problems or even thought at any stage to have it fixed somehow to the motion platform. Once I am seated in the cockpit I do an initial recenter then very rarely do I need to recenter the Rift. Definitely a lot less than when I used TrackIR. I suppose everybody's mileage will vary and depend upon personal tastes when it comes to comfort levels and need to recenter. I am wondering if there maybe a USB problems with some of the reports you have read re the loss of center or drift. I recall people were having problems with the sensor and incompatible usb ports some time ago? I have the recenter button mapped to my throttle and hit it automatically without even thinking if I am a bit off center.

I am very interested to hear from you MacThai regards to the sim you purchased when it arrives. As much as I like and enjoy the SimXperience, it is very big and cumbersome and takes up a lot of space. The one you purchased looks nice and compact....and the price is very good. I paid nealy $3000 aud five years ago to import mine here into Australia.

I use Andre`s simshaker program instead of simvibe with my buttkickers and homemade transducers. It is designed primarily for DCS and is well worth the low purchase price for the effects as good if not better than simvibe. If you need help setting up Simtools please feel free to contact me.

 

Simshaker thread https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144060&page=113

 

https://dreamsimteam.blogspot.com.au/p/simshaker-and-buttkicker.html

Edited September 11, 2016 by Macka
Spelling

[MacThai_75]

It's 'very' reassuring to know that this can in fact be be plug and play WRT not having major funky issues due to the HMD moving about.

It actually sounds like you're not having any more recentering issues than are normal.

 

I wasn't having any recentering issues with the short time I had my gear set up at a wood desk/chair, but when I went to a stationary OpenWheeler metal rig, I started to notice the need to recenter, but it is so fairly infrequent that I very well may not have stayed in the desk set-up mode long enough to see if it would show up there as well.

With my rig the direction of view of the infrequent and intermittent drift is random.

 

Then when reading about others that have motion rigs, and needing to recenter much more often ... and now over the past 24 hours reading that it's primarily a "sinking view" that needs to be recentered, and that is primarily on rigs that have the sensor mounted on the rig, I decided to see what Oculus has to say about it.

Now I'm seeing that some people are using 2 axis gimbals (like used on drone camera ships) to mount the sensor on and then the gimbal/sensor package mounted on the moving rig to reduce/eliminate that sinking view, so I think there are a lot of mixed cause and affects ... some misinterpreted, and some possibly even self inflicted.

 

Other than those reports, I'm not seeing any other ill affects with the CV1 and motion rigs at all.

But Yeah ... if that's all it is, then IMO mapping a button and pressing on is totally acceptable to me, to have motion.

 

The price for, and size of the DKP (which is a full cockpit) is worth it's entry level price to me and the viddys of it appear to demonstrate it's not super loud either, and very open to modifying for both additional axis upgrades and/or to be a dual racing and flight rig.

 

I'll be sure to post the entire process from purchase and delivery to assembly and initial runs.

 

Very good of you to offer your help with SimTools set-up to us.

Knowing we don't have to go it alone brings it all to another level of confidence! :)

Edited September 11, 2016 by MacThai_75

[Macka]

Actually now that I think about it, of course your going to get burps and conniptions if you mount the camera on the platform. Let me try to explain this semi coherently. If I understand this correctly, the camera sensor is the primary sensor. And if it loses tracking for a brief moment ie hand in front blocking camera when scratching head or adjusting headset, reaching for keyboard etc, the IMU and accelerometers take over to provide seamless momentary tracking data. So, if mounted on the platform, the sensor sees your hmd in a relative fashion if you are centred at 100 cm Z axis 0 cm y axis 0cm X axis. But if you are performing a rolling climb to the left, the platform is tilted back and to the left ie Z axis 120cm X axis -40 cm and Y -10Cm. And that is absolute IMU data being sent to Rift.......but camera is still seeing centered at previous relative coordinates. Now if I momentarily block the camera or lose optical tracking.....whats going to happen? The IMU sends totally different co-ords back to the rift miles away from the camera sensor co-ords. It rejigs, or to use the technical term, "burps", the entire scene for a moment until the camera sensor takes over command and re centers back to its relative co-ords. Or, maybe it doesnt even recentre but takes the last known imu data and resamples it leaving you with a permanent drift offset forcing you to do a manual recenter to compensate. Make sense? That`s probably the burp they are reporting. Of course this is only my take on the problem but it makes sense to my feeble mind.

 

Edit: Before anyone jumps on me, please bare in mind this is just a theory from my limited understanding of the occulus system and you'd need to confirm this with occulus themselves. Or if anyone has a better understanding of the Rift CV1 tracking system please feel free to gently correct me.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Macka

[MacThai_75]

I believe I understand what you are saying.

 

First ... a system with the sensor mounted on a motion cockpit.

WRT: How the sensor to HMD sees movement, it starts with the platform and it moving in sync.

So far no problems ...

As the HMD moves so does the sensor, and to 'that part' of the equation it's just the same as being mounted on a fixed cockpit.

 

But ... the HMD itself senses movement via 3 different sources.

One is linear acceleration (displacement per time interval) from the accelerometer.

One is rotational acceleration in degrees per time interval via the gyro.

And the last is compass heading via the magnetometer.

 

All signals are fed to the IMU (inertial measurement unit) and it develops it's own reference point in 3D space that should roughly agree with the sensor to HMD data.

That point is used to augment the sensor to HMD tracking by creating an error (adjustment) signal for the CV1's tracking.

 

So what you theorize happens, IMHO will happen because the two sets of sensors will not agree with what's happening, and the CV1 will look at the HMD IMU signal as a legitimate tracking error signal and change the view to compensate.

But I don't think you will need necessarily to block the sensor to HMD path for it to happen, because the confusion between what the sensor to HMD sees as a pseudo-stationary system (even though it's moving it's doing it sync) and the moving HMD sensors sees, will send a confused message causing a tracking error that ultimately results in you needing to reset the view .... I think. ;)

 

Second scenario ...

If you place the sensor off the moving platform, it sees the HMD in the cockpit.

As you move the platform via a joystick input, the 'sensor to HMD' will see that movement the same as if you had moved your head about in a fixed pit.

In other words, it will move your view to the right side if you roll right, down it you pitch down, and etc. ... as opposed to holding a center view.

BUT ... (if I understand you correctly) ... because the IMU is sending it's own inertial data that counters the data that is generated via the sensor to HMD, the Oculus sees that as a normal and proper error signal, and uses it to compensate and holds the view center cockpit unless you move your head about, which it tracks properly, and returns to the normal view when at rest ... only needing recentering at times that it burps.

 

If this is correct I would assume that the error signal has limits that are within the design expectations for the CV1, and if the error signal is beyond the expected limits it might cause a signal too large to be accurately compensated for, and you ultimately end up with an intermittent/inconsistent view drift that needs to be corrected by your mapped button.

It might also explain why some guys don't have a problem, and some do ... as the tolerance for exceeding anticipated and designed limits of the error signal might differ slightly from one individual CV1 to another.

 

If that's what you and the others that don't mount the sensor on the moving rig experience, I think I'll buy that too. :)

 

There are some folks that feel they have fixed the sinking view with a 2 axis gimbal to mount the sensor to a moving rig.

I'm suspect that what they are fixing is not a CV1 sensor/HMD internal sensors thing, but actually a physical issue of the rig movement causing the sensor to move it's pointing, as the rig jostles it about.

But because they post to the "moving view issue" that particular fix it gets confused with the original issue that just requires a periodic recenter due the nature of the beast.

But the mixed reports of success both "on rig and Off Rig" would seem to indicate that 'overall' CV1 and motion works.

 

When I get my rig I'll try both mounting methods, but after your post I'm inclined to think that off rig mounting will result in the better tracking.

It makes more sense to me now.

Until (of course) a new theory on gets posted on why 'only' a motion cancellation plugin will cure it, and shoots it all out of the water.

 

I'm hoping Oculus will shed some light on exactly what's going on, but I sort of expect a "yeah, don't do that " answer from them.

Because all I'm finding (and offering myself) is pure speculation based on enough knowledge to be dangerous. ;)

 

P.S. Yeah ... "burps" is the official scientific term for it.. ;)

Edited September 12, 2016 by MacThai_75

[MacThai_75]

I got an answer from Oculus (yeah .. on a Sunday!) that kind'a opens up a new door that might be an issue for some.

Not so much with the magnetometer or EMF as I speculated, but certainly much easier to deal with by just covering any IR reflective surfaces with something non-reflective to IR.

 

Here's what they said ..

 

Thanks for reaching out to us about this issue. Metal and reflective surfaces can interfere with the tracking. The Rift has IR tracking dots all over the headset too that are unseen to human eyes so it may be reflecting that signal from the back of the headrest or something and causing issues. Using a different material may help resolve the issue. Currently it is not possible to disable hardware components within the Rift individually, but you may find useful info on the developer forums. I hope you have a nice day, take care!

 

Thanks,

 

George

Oculus Support

 

So a better answer than I expected and if anyone had tracking issues that cause you to need to recenter, make sure you don't have IR reflective surfaces in the proximity of the HMD that might reflect the IR LEDs as he said, or actually from any part of the HMD as you turn your head.

It all might be just that simple, and would help explain the difference between my experience with no issues at my wooden desk, while having some in my metal framed high seatback cockpit.

Anyway ... easy to eliminate.

Edited September 12, 2016 by MacThai_75

[Macka]

Yeah, agree, they all could be contributing factors. I had previously thought about possible IR interference particularly in a brightly sunlit rooms as it was always a problem with TrackIR. I have actually blocked out any extraneous light anyway as I previously used a 3D projector with TrackIR. It will be interesting to see results from tests with fixed mount and platform mounted. My system doesnt lend itself to that test as my contols are all fix mounted off the motion platform. Looking forward to hearing your reports on the new platform and any tests.

[MacThai_75]

My DKP should be in the States in ~10 to 14 days and then sit in customs for some unknown time, but as soon as it gets here I'll start keeping notes and take pictures of the assembly.

 

I'm not 100% exactly sure about the initial tests, but from what read about SimTools ... it appears that I can do the initial functional tests via a mouse, then I can use the included plugin for 'Live For Speed' by downloading the demo version of Live For Speed, and I assume make the different adjustments for the motion response I want. (???)

 

I'll DL and print the SimTools docs, and study them over the next couple of weeks.

It all looks pretty straight forward in a skim read on-line.

But understand in no uncertain terms ... I'm keeping your info in case I need to exercise your very gracious offer for set-up help. ;)

[misoswan]

My DKP should be in the States in ~10 to 14 days and then sit in customs for some unknown time, but as soon as it gets here I'll start keeping notes and take pictures of the assembly.

 

I'm not 100% exactly sure about the initial tests, but from what read about SimTools ... it appears that I can do the initial functional tests via a mouse, then I can use the included plugin for 'Live For Speed' by downloading the demo version of Live For Speed, and I assume make the different adjustments for the motion response I want. (???)

 

I'll DL and print the SimTools docs, and study them over the next couple of weeks.

It all looks pretty straight forward in a skim read on-line.

But understand in no uncertain terms ... I'm keeping your info in case I need to exercise your very gracious offer for set-up help. ;)

a little more about the settup simtool...it helped me

https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/graphic-simtools-parameter-adjustment.9054/

[Macka]

Getting to know and use the Simtools Tuning centre will be very important after you have done your initial setup. This is where you will tailor the movement for each aircraft individually and save it as unique profile. No big rush to start tuning until you are comfortable with the basic axis settings with your primary aircraft. But there is nothing worse than having a really nice gentle profile for the P51 with full smooth dynamic ranges then you jump into an F15 and end up being thrown 10ft across the room on your first turn or turbulence encounter.

Do not use Yaw axis if you only have a 2DOF platform. It is based on 360 deg of yaw and will confuse the hell out of you when setting up. More little tips to come as you get closer to setting up. I have subscribed to this thread so will see any questions you may have if I can be of help or they guys over at Xsimulator are very helpful as well.

 

Edit: Sorry I am moving off VR topic discussing simtools and set up here, so once you guys get more into the setting up and simtools etc we can start a new thread in a more appropriate subforum. :)

Edited September 12, 2016 by Macka

[MacThai_75]

@misoswan Thank you for the informative link, it looks like 'great' info, and I've bookmarked it to have as a reference.

 

As the OP of this thread I personally and most certainly have no problem with SimTools being discussed here, but I do totally agree that more people with an interest in using a motion rig would be better served with a thread dedicated to the discussion of SimTools, in the Home Cockpits forum.

 

To that end I have created a thread for the discussion of SimTools there and added some links to hopefully get it started off on the right foot.

It's located here

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2899305#post2899305

 

It's also fortunate that we have a resident SimTools guru in Macka, that has offered to provide us with help should we need it.

 

Ya gotta love the 'net!! :)

[MacThai_75]

Getting to know and use the Simtools Tuning centre will be very important after you have done your initial setup. This is where you will tailor the movement for each aircraft individually and save it as unique profile.

 

PM reply sent. :)

[mrsparks]

@DBO

 

I'm embarrassed to say. Let me soften this by saying I opted to get the motion platform instead of a pilot's license :-)

 

 

About 8K. Eeek!