Anyone using a motion platform with VR?

[Macka]

@DBO

 

I'm embarrassed to say. Let me soften this by saying I opted to get the motion platform instead of a pilot's license :-)

 

 

About 8K. Eeek!

 

Don't feel too bad its not costing several thousand dollars every hour you fly in a chopper or P51 like real pilots. And you can fly as many hours a day as you like. I also know golfers who pay that for golf clubs and then pay thousands of dollars per year just for someplace to use them. :)

Edited September 13, 2016 by Macka

[misoswan]

Don't feel too bad its not costing several thousand dollars every hour you fly in a chopper or P51 like real pilots. And you can fly as many hours a day as you like. I also know golfers who pay that for golf clubs and then pay thousands of dollars per year just for someplace to use them. :)

nice 2 dof platform

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/RFS-Racing-Simulator-USB-connection-computer-Simple-debugging-perfect-adapter-the-simtools/32701110549.html

video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r68vjRhJY4

[DBO]

@DBO

 

I'm embarrassed to say. Let me soften this by saying I opted to get the motion platform instead of a pilot's license :-)

 

 

About 8K. Eeek!

 

HAHA.. fair enough, but why choose ;) .. do your real license and practice on the motion sim. I wish I had one when I did my license. :D

 

What you bought will be an awesome setup for sure - I'm going totally green over here.

[MacThai_75]

You and me both DBO!

 

The Atomic A3 looks to be an awesome rig, with amazing spec's and some very clever engineering that has resulted in outstanding features for operation, storage and reconfigurability ... as well as looks to match! :thumbup:

 

Looking forward to mrsparks' review once he has time to wring it out. :book:

[*Rage*]

That A3 looks amazing. But how does it get the data to simulate the effects? Their showroom is only a 90 minute drive from me. Might be worth a visit...

[MacThai_75]

This 'should' answer about any questions you might have ... http://www.atomicmotionsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Atomic-A3-technical-specification.pdf

 

Also take a look at both

http://www.nextstepsolutions.co.uk/atomicmotionsystems.com/?page_id=10244

 

and

http://www.atomicmotionsystems.com/?page_id=10798

 

If I had the $ for one, and the short drive you have, I'd definitely go to to their showroom for a peek ... and have a plan to to buy my better half some flowers. :smilewink:

 

This looks to be the perfect rig for most homes.

[*Rage*]

Ill give them a call tomorrow:)

[DBO]

Their showroom is only a 90 minute drive from me. .

 

Right then.. We'll be expecting a full situation report in zero three hours! :megalol:

[Macka]

@Mr Sparks

Look...if it makes you feel more comfortable I will swap you for my SimXperience rig......And I'll even pay the postage and throw in my computer below to sweeten the deal for you:)

[MacThai_75]

I see mrsparks is in San Francisco, and is expecting "delivery at the end of Sept."

 

Hmmmm, I'm up in the central Sierras ... I wonder if I can make a football move and come down off the mountain to attempt an end-of-month interception. :smilewink:

 

How exactly 'does' one find out what deliveries are coming in from the UK at any given time? :music_whistling:

Edited September 15, 2016 by MacThai_75

[Macka]

Thats easy....ring homeland security and tell them you believe some nuclear device is coming into the country....they will know it coz it has "Atomic" written on it...lol

 

 

Edit: Sorry Mr Sparks.... but I think you have figured by now we are all envious of you and you shouldn't feel embarrassed about any high quality purchase for a hobby you are passionate about.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Macka

[*Rage*]

Right then.. We'll be expecting a full situation report in zero three hours! :megalol:

 

So I spoke to them and it sounded very encouraging. Ill pop down there next week (probable Thursday). They'll have a DCS demonstrator ready hopefully:)

[MacThai_75]

Yeah, no shame in doing it right at all! :)

 

Although I think I'll be happy with the DKP I ordered, it I'm impressed with the paper and YouTube info on the A3 .. especially this one that also shows it in sky diving mode ... even if ya have to buy your own fan! :D

 

 

Looking forward to what both Rage and mrsparks think about it after some hands on.

[Frusheen]

Looking forward to hear how those who purchased platforms for DCS in VR find the experience. I was too concerned about the IMU sensor causing unwanted tracking movements due to the seat motion to proceed with my 6dof build and went the gseat route instead. Motion seems to be fine in a limited motion rig with fast movements like the racing examples but any videos I've seen with large slow movements involved have looked very concerning. Of course it may be different with the headset on but having watched many videos where the view obviously changes when the user hasn't moved their head was very disconcerting.

[DBO]

Sorry about going OT here for a second, but 'What the Heck' is this all about in that Atomic promo video?

 

 

Anyone seen that before? I'm not even sure what VR rig that is..

[MacThai_75]

@Frunsheen That's one reason I started this thread ... to find out what people that are actually using them are experiencing.

 

So far it appears that the view movement concern is largely comprised of theories that postulate it being much worse than it really is, or the results of rig mounted sensors changing the view being caused by the rig's movements changing the sensor's actual pointing, by bouncing it about, and etc.

But overall ... from the reports of the actual hands on experiences that I've read, it's at most a minor issue, both with the sensor either mounted on the moving rig, or off the rig.

 

But it's a main reason I ordered the 2DoF Dynamic Kit Pro at the entry level price.

My intentions are to give the 2DoF a chance for a dual purpose rig and if all goes well, and I decide I want more axis ... and assuming the control package for both are not mutually exclusive ..I'll add a G-Seat to it (basically set a G-Seat on a 2DoF motion platform).

 

Not sure if that will/can work, but if it can, it'll keep the cost for a sort of pseudo-6Dof at a reasonable price.

 

 

@DBO, evidently it's something called Bespoke Projects.

Not sure what it is beyond the viddy and the single image that I see on their web site.

It appears to be the A3 base with a special adapter that allows you to lay on it to sim skydiving or one of those small gas turbine powered human flight suits. :dunno:

 

 

Good question for Rage to ask about .... :detective:

Edited September 15, 2016 by MacThai_75

[hansangb]

Sorry about going OT here for a second, but 'What the Heck' is this all about in that Atomic promo video?

 

 

Anyone seen that before? I'm not even sure what VR rig that is..

 

 

I'm pretty sure it's Birdly http://www.somniacs.co/about.php

[twistking]

hey guys,

how would you set up the virtual reality headtracking with these motion-simualtors? if i understand correctly these do not replicate the motions of the aircraft but simualte the forces of acceleration by tilting.

 

that would however mean, that your reference for vr motion tracking must move with the simualtor, which means, that the tracking camera/sensor would have to be placed ON the rig. did i understand that correctly?

 

i mean, if the sensor would be placed outside the rig, it would pick up motions, that were meant to be felt only as g-force, but not as actual tilting. hope that makes sense... :)

[MacThai_75]

That was one of my questions too.

 

After doing a lot of reading about VR motion rigs, it seems that both methods of mounting the sensor have been successful, requiring maybe slightly more recentering of the view on a motion rig than is due to the normal tracking errors on a stationary VR rig.

 

But there is some confusion amoungst the reports, and IMHO that's due to various different things that can affect tracking/view, incorrectly being assigned as cause and effect.

 

Like for example the sensor for the CV1 actually changing it's pointing when rig mounted because of the rigs movement bouncing it about and causing it to move and point in a slightly different direction than it was at start-up.

 

Some people have gone to using a dual axis camera gimbal (like those used for a camera drone) to mount their sensor in order to eliminate that, and some have tried ways to immobilize the sensor with things like duct tape.

Although the reports of tracking errors caused by that are certainly valid, IMHO that type of tracking error is sort of self induced, and should be taken out of the equation.

 

Also, the question I asked Oculus (which I've posted in this thread along with the answer) about some things that might affect tracking/view, and the answer they gave ... that can also add to errors should be removed from the mounting method question, because what they said would also affect a stationary rig as well, but it's something that can also add to the uncertainty of 'which is the proper/best way to mount the sensor on a VR movement rig' if not set aside from that question.

 

In some cases there has been postulation that VR on a moving rig can't be done without "movement correction software" or just turning off the HMD sensors altogether.

And for optimum performance that may very well be correct.

 

But on rigs that have the sensor mounted either on or off the rig, there have been reports of success, albeit that do require a recentering of the view ... but only slightly more than on a normal non-moving cockpit.

 

This thread has examples of both ways of sensor mounting, and both seem to work about equally well as reported from guys with hands on, both here and on other forums that I've visited to get an answer.

 

I posted my theory as to why I think an off rig mounting might actually be best, but it's admittedly speculation on my part as to how Oculus is using the HMD's on board sensors and IMU to augment the tracking of the sensor to HMD IR LEDs.

 

I'll mount my camera both on and off the rig, and do as Macka has done ... just map a recenter button.

If I see a difference I'll post what I find.

 

 

If you do find other answers to the question please also post it here.

Edited September 18, 2016 by MacThai_75

[Frusheen]

My concern is with the inertial measurement unit in the headset not the camera sensor. The imu in the headset is doing the orientation tracking with the camera being used for error correction, canceling drift on the gyros and aid positional tracking. It updates at a much lower rate than the internal imu.

 

The result of platform movement on the imu is clearly visible in some videos. Even with the camera on the platform the pilot view is seen to tilt and wobble when the users view isn't moving. Here's an example.

 

 

 

[MacThai_75]

See:https://www.google.com/search?q=CV1+tracking+wobbles&oq=CV1+tracking+wobbles&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61.5107j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

An initial quick review seems to indicate that most, if not all of these are with stationary rigs.

 

Unfortunately it's another aspect that adds confusion as to exactly what does happen with motion rigs that's different than with stationary rigs and to what degree for each ... either with or without rig mounted sensors.

 

A thorough theory of operation for the Cv1 from Oculus, and then some everyday controlled experimentation would probably yield some better and more in depth understanding of what should be in what bucket of suspected issues, and provide a proper path to things that might possibly be improved upon.

 

But in the meantime, I'm actually pretty happy with what I see in the video, and I'm satisfied with the overall experience reports from people currently using VR with motion rigs.

 

Although that might change dramatically once my motion rig gets here. :)

Edited September 19, 2016 by MacThai_75

[twistking]

my confusion is about a different "problem". i must however say, that i never experienced how a motion simualtor really works, therefore i might be wrong in my assumptions, so bare that in mind.

 

i am wondering if different methods of head tracking can - in certain situations - work against the motion simulation. let me give you an example.

 

you are on the runway accelerating. the motion simulator tilts the rig, so you experience normal gravity as force of forward acceleration.

now, if you would have tracker reference outside the rig, the VR tracker would translate the movement of the rig to head movement. so your head movement align with your movement in the real physical world. however the virtual airplane is still flat on the ground at this point, only accelerating and the tilted sim-rig is only to simulate forward acceleration.

in this case, i think the tracker has to be mounted on the sim, or you would probably feel, that you are not accelerating but are just tilted backwards. if the tracker was mounted on the rig however, the VR might even improve the sensation of the motion simulator, since the VR tells you, that you are still flat on the ground, so that the sensation of being pushed towards your back, has to be acceleration and not tilting.

 

any thoughts on this?

 

also could someone explain how a motion simulator handles the position of virtual aircraft in the world? obviously it's main task seems to be to "simulate" forces of acceleration, but will it also try to relatively copy the bank and pitch of the aircraft? so if the aircrafts travels at constant speed with certain pitch and certain roll/bank (without accelerating, without turning), would the motion sim be flat or would it be relatively pitched like the virtual plane?

[MacThai_75]

Good questions, and ones I've asked about in this thread myself.

 

I think that there would definitely be some difference between a 2 DoF and up to 6DoF motion cockpit.

But from reading different reports of people using motion rigs with VR, both with 'on rig' and 'off rig' mounted sensors, it all appears to work for them ~equally well.

 

So that's why I said until we have a good theory of operation on the HMD, it's a mystery (to me anyway) how that can be, and requires some speculation to answer, which may or may not be totally correct.

 

I suspect that the reason you "feel" some of the movement/forces that a particular XDoF rig might produce, is partly as much a function of VR tricking your brain as actual rig movement.

Like when just sitting/standing (not in/on a motion rig) and VR scene has you stepping off a cliff to hang glide, or in a roller-coaster, pitching boat and etc. or when in a diving turn on a stationary rig, you feel the non-existent movement.

 

Your question of pitch once at stable alt and speed, should be similar to a vehicle at constant speed going up or down an incline, and I believe what you'll experience will be a mix of VR trickery as it is what rigs with various DoF motion are actually producing, and the rig's actual position obviously being whatever the program is telling it to be at the time, with both the sensor/camera and HMD sensors apparently working in concert enough to allow for either on or off rig mounting, for some unexplained but so far 'guessed at' (including myself) reason(s). :dunno:

 

The problem for me with all this is, without an actual theory of operation for the HMD, it requires as much "I believe" as a revival meeting. :smilewink:

Edited September 19, 2016 by MacThai_75

[twistking]

hey, thanks for the answers.

 

i'm not planning on investing in a motion-rig at the moment, but i find it's an interesting prospect.

hopefully some VR companies will shift their focus to motion rigs at some point. from my basic understanding they could surely improve on VR+motionSim with drivers/software that combines the motionSim and the head tracking, so that both can work to their full potential.

 

until then, it's up to the pinoneers to figure out, what works best. it's probably awesome already nevertheless. keep us posted! :)

 

ps: maybe a stupid question, but i couldnt find a video that showed it clearly: VR aside, only looking at motionSim: in a car racing simulator, if you go uphill without accelerating and without turning. just the incline. will the simulator also dispaly the incline or will it be flat, since there are no forces of acceleration to be simualted. or maybe this depends on the software used for motion? it's weird how complicated motion sim is, when you actually start thinking about it:)

[Frusheen]

hey, thanks for the answers.

 

i'm not planning on investing in a motion-rig at the moment, but i find it's an interesting prospect.

hopefully some VR companies will shift their focus to motion rigs at some point. from my basic understanding they could surely improve on VR+motionSim with drivers/software that combines the motionSim and the head tracking, so that both can work to their full potential.

 

until then, it's up to the pinoneers to figure out, what works best. it's probably awesome already nevertheless. keep us posted! :)

 

ps: maybe a stupid question, but i couldnt find a video that showed it clearly: VR aside, only looking at motionSim: in a car racing simulator, if you go uphill without accelerating and without turning. just the incline. will the simulator also dispaly the incline or will it be flat, since there are no forces of acceleration to be simualted. or maybe this depends on the software used for motion? it's weird how complicated motion sim is, when you actually start thinking about it:)

 

It depends on the simulator and software being used for motion.