Air warfare vs Mig-29A

[atsmith6]

Right, so started getting back into learning the M2K now it's a bit more fleshed out.

 

This got me thinking, given it's an A-A fighter released in 1982, same year as the Mig-29A which carries the R-27R (in operation since 1983), how does the Mirage intercept of it's peers work?

 

Assuming a two ship squad, both aircraft can see each other on radar, their cold war theatre would have meant they probably had adequate GCI/AWACs or equivalent in their likely conflict zones to be able to answer the friend or foe question even before being vectored in.

 

So this leaves me with a scenario I can't solve.

 

2 x Mig-29A with 2xR-27R ranged to 50NM. Lets assume a 25-20NM shoot with the intention to either kill or force the enemy onto the defensive.

 

2 x Mirage with 2xS530D which has an absolute maximum range of about 19NM if wikipedia is to be believed, but to be effective needs to be somewhat closer (I think in the sim range equates to about 13NM for an effective shot?)

 

How does one manage this fight? I doubt the Mirage would have been incapable of the medium altitude BVR fight given it's chronology, and it's primary adversary must have been the Soviet fighters including both older jets like the Mig-21 and newer ones like the Mig-29. Given the F-15 was introduced in 1976, I must also assume that the designers would have been anticipating heavy fighters like the SU-27 which does indeed come around in 1985.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Kind Regards

[kobeshow]

Well, idk what exactly your goal is, but if you set up your fight like you have in this sim the Migs should be easy pickings. R27-R cannot even begin to hope to hit anything beyond 20km, you would barely need to pay any attention to a 20-25nm launch. The S530D outranges this missile without a problem, so shooting first and keeping the pressure on should get you in good position for a win.

Keep in mind that A2A is a highly dynamic thing and there is no "if X do Z" answer in most cases, but I can tell you from MP expirience that the Mirage has the longest arm in a ~80's setting (i.e. NO AIM120/ET/ER)

[Chrinik]

Pulling ranges out of the internet and basing a hypothetical on it doesn´t really work, the numbers you have are quite off.

 

The Mirage would simply Chaff, notch, trash the R-27Rs then fire the 530ies, both flights have the same amount of BVR Missiles (4, in this case)...

 

We can only really talk about DCS, in which you can simply set up that exact scenario and try it out for yourself.

 

The Mirage has a much better Radarsuit and avionics package in general. The 530 has the longer range in game.

 

The MiG-29 might be more dangerous in close combat, as it can pack 2 more heaters and those heaters can be R-73s, which are damn good. It also has (player perspective) a HMS allowing off-boresight capability, the Mirage can slave the seeker to a target, and the Radar allows vertical scan up to 60° off boresight.

 

I´d be more concerned about sneaky R-27T launches, but the D²M system is supposed to warn you about them, aswell as radar missiles RWR warning, I believe.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Chrinik

[atsmith6]

Pulling ranges out of the internet and basing a hypothetical on it doesn´t really work, the numbers you have are quite off.

 

Hence the question. I'm totally new to this jet and it's weapons so have very little good quality information and zero experience.

 

The Mirage would simply Chaff, notch, trash the R-27Rs then fire the 530ies, both flights have the same amount of BVR Missiles (4, in this case)...

 

We can only really talk about DCS, in which you can simply set up that exact scenario and try it out for yourself.

 

So - if you'll forgive the ignorance - what is the effective launch range of the R-27R if the intent is a kill shot then? Or put another way, how close do I dare come and still expect to be able to defend?

 

The Mirage has a much better Radarsuit and avionics package in general. The 530 has the longer range in game.

 

Seems like I had that completely backwards then.

 

The MiG-29 might be more dangerous in close combat, as it can pack 2 more heaters and those heaters can be R-73s, which are damn good. It also has (player perspective) a HMS allowing off-boresight capability, the Mirage can slave the seeker to a target, and the Radar allows vertical scan up to 60° off boresight.

 

I´d be more concerned about sneaky R-27T launches, but the D²M system is supposed to warn you about them, aswell as radar missiles, I believe.

 

To start with I intend to start with 2 x r-27r + 2 x r-60 loadouts and progress to r-73s. When the RWR gets the ability to detect IR guided launches (I think that's rumoured for the next patch, or one that just passed, not certain) then I'll move up to more dangerous load-outs.

 

Though the time that takes me may just be longer than it takes the M2K to get out of alpha. :lol:

 

Thanks Chrinik for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated

[atsmith6]

..., but I can tell you from MP expirience that the Mirage has the longest arm in a ~80's setting (i.e. NO AIM120/ET/ER)

 

Interesting. I appear to have had that backward.

[Chrinik]

Okay, explaining mode engaged.

 

Reading more about the plans regarding the D²M system, we might not get it at all, and it apparently is a system designed against MANPADs (although I don´t know why it wouldn´t detect a much bigger missile launch below your plane, as it probably detects the engine exhaust), so let´s take that out of the equasion for now...

 

The R-27R in DCS is notoriously bad at ECCM and prone to eat chaff like candy. It´s become better recently, with an update fixing a bug that allowed it to see chaff it shouldn´t be able to see, but it´s still a very easy to spoof missile.

 

The effective launch ranges from my experience flying 80ies loadouts are about 20km for a head on-high speed- medium altitude (15000 feet), and about 10km for optimal PK (probability of kill).

 

The effective launch ranges for a Super530D is roughly 13 nautical miles and 8 nautical miles respectively.

 

The R-27R has been designed to shoot down fighters. The 530D has been designed to shoot bombers, so it´s got a massive warhead, hence alot of weight, and is not very maneuverable at lower speeds, keep that in mind.

 

These are variables, they change depending on closurerate, altitudes etc, but just to have a ballpark.

 

The way I go about air combat is that I first, find the bandit and IFF it.

Next, I lock him in TWS and then crank the bandit (meaning you put him on the left or right edge of your RADAR scan zone.

This effectively shortens his maximum range and puts you into a good position to lag-defend (dragging his missile out) should the need arise. Be aware that your TWS does not warn him that you got him locked, but still displays you launch ranges for a better judgement of when to engage.

 

Let´s say we are cranking left, putting him at the right most edge of the RADAR scan zone.

You crank for as long as you feel comfortable. I tend to crank anywhere between maximum launch range and NEZ(no escape zone), but it doesn´t matter much as the numbers are only viable for a shot from this position, which is about 60° off of your nose.

 

Then the magic happens, you pull into the bandit, and when your nose is on the intercept marker (or on him when he flies straight at you), you fire the first 530. Note how your Launch Zones increase as you reduce the amount by which the missile has to turn off your wing to hit, bleeding energy. This should put him well into NEZ, but it will give your missile a higher PK regardless.

 

You then crank into the opposite direction, right in this case, and put him into the leftmost edge of your Radar to reduce closure rate and maintain the lock.

He will get a warning by this point, as your RADAR switched to STT(single target track) automatically to guide your missile. So he will probably defend.

 

Depending on his behaviour I do either one of three things:

 

1. he didn´t launch yet and breaks hard into the defence = Maintain pursuit, he is at the disadvantage now as he can´t guide weapons, press the advantage by getting as close to him as possible. When he turns hot on you again, launch again. Force him defensive again or make him eat your missile to get a shot on you. Crank if he stays hot for a couple seconds (as he might launch) and get your Magics ready, as the fight is about out of BVR and straight into the merge. Press the RADAR Slave button to lock your Magic seeker on his Radar returns. Wait for your missile to impact or fire a Magic when in range, if he launches, defend, you are now in a Dogfight.

 

2: He stays hot and tries to get his weapon off. Well, no problem, your missile is kinematically superiour and will reach him before his reaches you, so the lock will be lost as he will die and he will run right into your missile, keep changing the crank and fire a second shot as desired. Release countermeasures as needed.

 

3: he launches on me and pulls into the crank. Damn, now I gotta guide my missile and watch out for his. Keep snaking from one crank to the other and throw in a couple lag-rolls to drag his missile out of energy, make sure you don´t do anything crazy to maintain lock on him. Release countermeassures as desired.

Your first missile is probably trashed, so get ready to crank into him again and launch a second one.

 

 

But generally, until we can get a RWR launch warning, you should fly the Mirage alot more defensively and keep your EYES OUT THE COCKPIT! You got to visually spot the launch so you can appropriately react.

 

This all applies for basic 1 on 1 BVR combat for the planes described above and is by no means everything, but it should give you a scenario to train for and get into the habit off.

The rest will come with time. So far I have a perfect track record on the 104th server.

4 Flyouts in the Mirage, 3 Kills, 0 times shot down.

That will probably change at some point, and it´s a low number of flyouts, but I´m kinda proud of it XD It´s an interesting experience flying to "survive" rather then just Airquake that stuff, odds be damned.

 

One more thing, if you lose lock after missiles have been exchanged, defend and run. It´s not worth it.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Chrinik

[atsmith6]

Okay, explaining mode engaged.

 

Fantastic information Chrinik. Very much appreciated. You've definitely given me something to go practice and get used to. Looking forward to it now :)

 

Have a great day mate.

[jojo]

The M-2000 is designed for high altitude interception.

Above FL200 you can have an edge, and especially at FL340-400.

 

In interception scenario, assuming you have some situational awareness of what you are facing (AWACS/ GCI).

- on target detection (currently around 45Nm): engage AB and turn ON jammer.

You should be able to reach nearly M1.3, even with drop tank. This will increase the terminal velocity of your missile.

- Shoot just before 20Nm and crank: turn away at nor than 45 degrees offset angle, and dive between 20-30 degrees.

Monitor your antenna limits on radar scope.

 

You may need to reverse your turn to be sure to evade missile against multiple opponents.

Since you're diving supersonic during the first part of the crank, the enemies missiles will have to tak a great lead course to intercept you. If you reverse the turn, you have great chances to outrun almost any missile.

 

When missile count down reach 0 in HUD, you have to decide:

- pump (turn away)

- recommit

 

If you recommit I suggest you SVI mode, and if the enemy fired at you, just put the missile departure smoke in the HUD, the plane shouldn't be that far from it, and within 10Nm, it will be locked. Shoot the second 530D, and crank again ( or rather high speed S)

Edited September 21, 2016 by jojo

[kobeshow]

So far I have a perfect track record on the 104th server.

4 Flyouts in the Mirage, 3 Kills, 0 times shot down.

That will probably change at some point, and it´s a low number of flyouts, but I´m kinda proud of it XD

 

I swear the next time we fly I am just going to shoot you down so I don't have to hear about this anymore :smilewink:

[gavagai]

I´d be more concerned about sneaky R-27T launches, but the D²M system is supposed to warn you about them, aswell as radar missiles RWR warning, I believe.

 

Isn't that intended for IR Sam launches? Would it warn you of an R-27T fired from the horizon?

 

I've also heard that the Mirage 2000D had D²M, but the 2000C did not, because the latter was not expected to be flying at low altitudes where IR Sams are a danger.

[atsmith6]

The M-2000 is designed for high altitude interception.

Above FL200 you can have an edge, and especially at FL340-400.

 

In interception scenario, assuming you have some situational awareness of what you are facing (AWACS/ GCI).

- on target detection (currently around 45Nm): engage AB and turn ON jammer.

You should be able to reach nearly M1.3, even with drop tank. This will increase the terminal velocity of your missile.

- Shoot just before 20Nm and crank: turn away at nor than 45 degrees offset angle, and dive between 20-30 degrees.

Monitor your antenna limits on radar scope.

 

You may need to reverse your turn to be sure to evade missile against multiple opponents.

Since you're diving supersonic during the first part of the crank, the enemies missiles will have to tak a great lead course to intercept you. If you reverse the turn, you have great chances to outrun almost any missile.

 

When missile count down reach 0 in HUD, you have to decide:

- pump (turn away)

- recommit

 

If you recommit I suggest you SVI mode, and if the enemy fired at you, just put the missile departure smoke in the HUD, the plane shouldn't be that far from it, and within 10Nm, it will be locked. Shoot the second 530D, and crank again ( or rather high speed S)

 

Another one to try and analyse in tacview. Looking forward to it. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Much appreciated :thumbup:

[jojo]

Isn't that intended for IR Sam launches? Would it warn you of an R-27T fired from the horizon?

 

I've also heard that the Mirage 2000D had D²M, but the 2000C did not, because the latter was not expected to be flying at low altitudes where IR Sams are a danger.

 

 

 

Indeed, the design purpose of D²M is to detect MANPADs (IR shoulder launched SAM).

 

Because these missiles have passive guidance you have 2 ways to detect them:

- millimeter wave radar (to detect small objects): It will detect incoming missile body.

- IR sensor: it will detect missile's engine plume as long as it's burning.

 

D²M is an IR sensor.

 

But both systems will detect any missile. However for D²M the missile has to be launched within detection range (I doubt a R-27ER launched from 30Nm+ would be detected...but the Serval RWR will tell you).

 

All French Mirage 2000 have the same control panel. Yet they can have different display (MFD or dedicated screen) and different jammers (Sabre for Mirage 2000C/ 2000-5F and Caméléon for Mirage 2000N/ D).

 

I found a reliable source stating that Mirage 2000N had to be upgraded to be fitted with D²M even though it had the switch on control panel from the beginning.

 

So having the switch on control panel doesn't mean it's plug & play.

 

I think the system was planned from the beginning, but it did receive a boost of interest when a Mirage 2000N have been shot down by MANPAD over Bosnia in 1995. Then it became urgent priority.

 

And since it's optional device, and it wasn't procured on 1/ 1 rule for Mirage 2000N/ D, it's only fitted on operational deployment to strike aircrafts.

This is why it's unlikely to be fitted to Mirage 2000C.

[jojo]

Another one to try and analyse in tacview. Looking forward to it. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Much appreciated :thumbup:

 

The most critical part is to assess whether your first missile killed or not.

If the target just try to notch you, and you dive hard enough to keep it in look up, you have good chances to kill.

If he "pump" (180 turn) he will outrun your missile. But then, depending on tactical situation, you may press for a second shot if he try to recommit.

 

Anyway with Fox 1 shooter it's always better to fly in pair to support each other. Because when you shoot you're half blind.

[Chrinik]

Indeed, the design purpose of D²M is to detect MANPADs (IR shoulder launched SAM).

 

Because these missiles have passive guidance you have 2 ways to detect them:

- millimeter wave radar (to detect small objects): It will detect incoming missile body.

- IR sensor: it will detect missile's engine plume as long as it's burning.

 

D²M is an IR sensor.

 

But both systems will detect any missile. However for D²M the missile has to be launched within detection range (I doubt a R-27ER launched from 30Nm+ would be detected...but the Serval RWR will tell you).

 

All French Mirage 2000 have the same control panel. Yet they can have different display (MFD or dedicated screen) and different jammers (Sabre for Mirage 2000C/ 2000-5F and Caméléon for Mirage 2000N/ D).

 

I found a reliable source stating that Mirage 2000N had to be upgraded to be fitted with D²M even though it had the switch on control panel from the beginning.

 

So having the switch on control panel doesn't mean it's plug & play.

 

I think the system was planned from the beginning, but it did receive a boost of interest when a Mirage 2000N have been shot down by MANPAD over Bosnia in 1995. Then it became urgent priority.

 

And since it's optional device, and it wasn't procured on 1/ 1 rule for Mirage 2000N/ D, it's only fitted on operational deployment to strike aircrafts.

This is why it's unlikely to be fitted to Mirage 2000C.

 

That´s very unfortunate. I would have liked another plane (a fighter, even) with the capability to be warned about IR missiles, even if it´s just useful sometimes (A2G, Dogfights), but if it didn´t come to be, it didn´t come to be.

 

I mean, we already have a hybrid version with the 4 Magics (I think) but alas.

 

I swear the next time we fly I am just going to shoot you down so I don't have to hear about this anymore :smilewink:

 

So you´d rather hear about that instead?

Also, blue on blue doesn´t count XD

[jojo]

What I'm telling you about the Mirage 2000 family doesn't engage Razbam.

So maybe there will be a slight deviation, but at least you know it when you use it :thumbup:

[gavagai]

I set up 2 Mig-29A last night. Their loadout was 1 R-27R, 1 R-27T, and 4 R-60M. I flew single ship.

 

Once I was shot down by an R-27T (caught me with my pants down), and another time I took an R-60M to the face. I was very surprised by the latter because when I fly the Mig-21 the R-60M is rear-aspect only.

 

The R-27R is terrible. Even though the Mig-29A can launch much sooner than the Mirage with the 530D, the R-27R is not a serious threat provided you chaff and don't fly in a straight line.

[jojo]

That's something that upset me too, but AI R-60 seems to be all aspect.

[TomCatMucDe]

the R60 are now all aspects. It is the case on the Su-25. I think also LNS made it all aspects in one of the updates. I havent touched DCS for some weeks though.

[jojo]

the R60 are now all aspects. It is the case on the Su-25. I think also LNS made it all aspects in one of the updates. I havent touched DCS for some weeks though.

 

Well great. Then we can ask Fox 3 Super 530D too, why not ? :doh:

[myHelljumper]

R60M are, R60 should not

[Chrinik]

That´s what he meant...