About Mirage 2000C speed

[JunMcKill]

Hi guys, I think there are several post about this, but my question is, the real Mirage 2000C speed is the one simulated in DCS? or the one in Wikipedia?

 

Performance

 

Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 (2,336 km/h, 1,451 mph) at high altitude/ 1,110 km/h (690 mph) at low altitude

Range: 1,550 km (837 nmi, 963 mi) with drop tanks

Ferry range: 3,335 km (1,800 nmi, 2,073 mi) with auxiliary fuel

Service ceiling: 17,060 m (59,000 ft)

Rate of climb: 285 m/s (56,000 ft/min)

Wing loading: 337 kg/m² (69 lb/ft²)

Thrust/weight: 0.7 at loaded weight

 

my question come, because Im flying in DCS and see how easy the M2000C is capable to catch a SU-27S at low altitude, while the SU-27S specs are:

 

Performance

 

Maximum speed:

At altitude: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,550 mph)

At sea level: 1,400 km/h, 870 mph[102]

Range: 3,530 km (2,193 mi, 1,906 nmi) at altitude; (1,340 km / 800 mi at sea level)

Service ceiling: 19,000 m (62,523 ft)

Rate of climb: 300 m/s[104] (59,000 ft/min)

Wing loading: 377.9 kg/m2 (444.61 kg/m2 with full fuel) (77.3 lb/ft2 with 56% fuel)

Thrust/weight: 1.07 with 56% internal fuel; 0.907 with full fuel

Maximum g-load: +9 g

Edited October 5, 2016 by JunMcKill
spelling

[jojo]

What is the load of the Su 27 ?

 

With full weapon load you can forget max speed. And M-2000 will never carry as much weapons as Su 27.

[JunMcKill]

What is the load of the Su 27 ?

 

With full weapon load you can forget max speed. And M-2000 will never carry as much weapons as Su 27.

 

two R-73 in wingtips only (i spent all my missiles previously), 40% or less fuel, and the mirage with full ordnance

 

But anyway, I tested in several combats with more weapons in the SU-27, flying at 500 meters height and 1350 km/h TAS, and always but always, the mirage get me, even the DCS F-15 can't catch the SU-27 at low altitude, but the mirage FM can, I think there is something wrong with the FM and the spéeds limits.

Edited October 6, 2016 by JunMcKill

[acdelta57]

two R-73 in wingtips only (i spent all my missiles previously), 40% or less fuel, and the mirage with full ordnance

 

So your upset because a m2k caught up to you and killed you in the powerful su27? ;)

 

Lots of factors that could lead up to that. Was he higher than you? Did he have a lead pursuit and sufficient energy to close? Did he start his pursuit at a higher velocity than you? List goes on.

I've been flat out out run by an su33, but then again I've dived down on a 33 while he was low on speed and even tho he lit the burners I still forced him into a kill shot. Now mig29 lights the burners....Forget it. He goneee. :pilotfly:

[Rlaxoxo]

Even the DCS F-15 can't catch the SU-27 at low altitude

 

...

[Ktulu2]

lol

 

F-15 can catch a 27 in dcs...Did it so often...

Now two things :

1-Max speed is function of altitude, in a non-linear manner. This means that a plane that can get as fast as Mac 2.5 at angel 50 could possibly get overtaken by a plane limited at Mac 2. This depends mainly on the low altitude Cl/Cd and the Trust vs altitude curve of the engines.

2-There are multiples way to catch a bandit running away. If the pursuer gains altitude, it will increase his max speed. Also, if your enemy wasn't exactly on your 6 o'clock, he will have an easier time catching you if he takes the optimal heading.

 

Finally, if you did small turns to defend his 530s, that will have a big impact.

[JunMcKill]

So your upset because a m2k caught up to you and killed you in the powerful su27? ;)

 

Lots of factors that could lead up to that. Was he higher than you? Did he have a lead pursuit and sufficient energy to close? Did he start his pursuit at a higher velocity than you? List goes on.

I've been flat out out run by an su33, but then again I've dived down on a 33 while he was low on speed and even tho he lit the burners I still forced him into a kill shot. Now mig29 lights the burners....Forget it. He goneee. :pilotfly:

 

No Im not upset, what I want is that the M2000C as a tested modulewith EFM ect etc should comply with the real life specs, thats all, I have seen M2000C in dogfights in DCS doing things that pilots IRL tell that the real aircraft cant do it!

 

 

And when I tell you that one aircraft reach 1350 km/h at low altitude, means 1350! ok? the official M2000C specs are below that speed!

[JunMcKill]

lol

 

F-15 can catch a 27 in dcs...Did it so often...

Now two things :

1-Max speed is function of altitude, in a non-linear manner. This means that a plane that can get as fast as Mac 2.5 at angel 50 could possibly get overtaken by a plane limited at Mac 2. This depends mainly on the low altitude Cl/Cd and the Trust vs altitude curve of the engines.

2-There are multiples way to catch a bandit running away. If the pursuer gains altitude, it will increase his max speed. Also, if your enemy wasn't exactly on your 6 o'clock, he will have an easier time catching you if he takes the optimal heading.

 

Finally, if you did small turns to defend his 530s, that will have a big impact.

 

F15 can catch SU27 at med to high altitude in DCS, at low level never, we did all tests!

[Ktulu2]

Thing is, what you do is go at medium alt. while the Su is staying low, and than you catch him pretty quick.

 

But anyways, give us a track or don't talk back! (had to make up something clever-ish)

[JunMcKill]

Thing is, what you do is go at medium alt. while the Su is staying low, and than you catch him pretty quick.

 

But anyways, give us a track or don't talk back! (had to make up something clever-ish)

 

Im trying to record a good tacview but the lags and desync in the 104th mess everything, and by the way ... I TALK WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT! If you dont want to read my post can simply shut the .... up

[Ktulu2]

I guess a little someone can't take a little joke. No harm intended, although this should be a first reflex when you are talking about a bug.

[acdelta57]

Im trying to record a good tacview but the lags and desync in the 104th mess everything, and by the way ... I TALK WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT! If you dont want to read my post can simply shut the .... up

 

Sure sound upset to me. A case of the "Owned" can do that sometimes :lol:

[jojo]

No Im not upset, what I want is that the M2000C as a tested modulewith EFM ect etc should comply with the real life specs, thats all, I have seen M2000C in dogfights in DCS doing things that pilots IRL tell that the real aircraft cant do it!

 

 

And when I tell you that one aircraft reach 1350 km/h at low altitude, means 1350! ok? the official M2000C specs are below that speed!

 

The problem is that your specs are wrong.

 

The Mirage 2000C is supersonic at all altitudes (clean).

1110km/h = 600kt/ M0.9 at sea level.

Mirage 2000D can do that with 2 wings tanks, 2 GBU-12 and laser pod and at MIL power.

And on Red Flag, hot weather and likely 5000ft AMSL it still gives 580 KIAS.

 

1390km/h at sea level in standard conditions is M1.1, it's within Mirage 2000C capacity with AB.

 

[Edit] The English Wikipedia page is wrong about top speed at low altitude. French Wikipedia page state M1.2 at low altitude, and this is what I read in almost every publication. However this must be for clean aircraft.

Edited October 6, 2016 by jojo

[JunMcKill]

I guess a little someone can't take a little joke. No harm intended, although this should be a first reflex when you are talking about a bug.

 

Im sorry for my outburst, seems like I had a bad day at job! :pilotfly:

[vparez]

If in doubt you can make a multiplayer mission and test it out with a friend in more controlled conditions. Concluding something for one sortie on an online server is really not a good idea.

 

I don't know if something big changed in this respect, but I had dogfights at very low level (online as well) where I was on the 6 of an Su27, just out of guns range, and I couldn't catch up with him and enter my guns range. Had I tried anything but the lag pursuit, he would have even increased the range between us.

 

Now, the last time I had this occur, was back when the Magics weren't firing, so I dont know if something changed... Didn't get into a similar situation recently. By the way, it was really funny: you can't catch up so you can't shoot guns, its too close for a solid S530 shot, and your Magic won't fire! ;)

[OperatorJack]

I have hit 930kts at sea level before in the M2K and it was recently. I'm not sure how realistic this behaviour is

[CrashO]

I have hit 930kts at sea level before in the M2K and it was recently.

After a dive and just for a short time. Or sustained?

Because I have high speeds at sea level (Mach 1,8 and up) all the time, but only after I have just gone blasting down full burner from high alt. But it bleeds off pretty quickly.

 

Most recent example is

, where I start out at about 1150knts after a dive and do some turns and bleed down to 800kts pretty quick, like I would expect from the mirage.

 

*Ignore the music on the video :music_whistling:

[Rlaxoxo]

Take note the temperature and Season of the missions.

 

Jet engines are more effective the lower the temperature is

[OperatorJack]

After a dive and just for a short time. Or sustained?

Because I have high speeds at sea level (Mach 1,8 and up) all the time, but only after I have just gone blasting down full burner from high alt. But it bleeds off pretty quickly.

 

Most recent example is

, where I start out at about 1150knts after a dive and do some turns and bleed down to 800kts pretty quick, like I would expect from the mirage.

 

*Ignore the music on the video :music_whistling:

 

Situation on this was I was on the deck, no weapons full burner.

I think the season was summer and i was running away from 2 F-15s, I just left the burner on and managed to accelerate to around 930kts and sustained it for a good few minutes til I cut power myself

[GGTharos]

You should be experiencing air-frame disintegration.

 

I have hit 930kts at sea level before in the M2K and it was recently. I'm not sure how realistic this behaviour is

[Azrayen]

OK, let's answer in 2 parts:

 

No Im not upset, what I want is that the M2000C as a tested modulewith EFM ect etc

Logical expectation. For this, please wait until the module is out of beta. During beta stage, lots of things, including FM, are tuned, sometimes using a trial-and-error process.

 

(...) should comply with the real life specs, thats all

Logical expectation. But what are the real life specs? There is an interesting question. :) And not an easy one to answer (unless you aren't allowed to talk much about it).

Edited October 6, 2016 by Azrayen

[GGTharos]

If you're reaching 930kCAS at SL without issues, you're driving an X-15. This is very logical, and the M2K undoubtedly has a posted Vne ... which if I recall is around 750kCAS. WEhen you exceed this, you should be in real danger of losing control surfaces, canopy, or just outright destruction depending on circumstances.

 

No module models this, but it would be nice to see.

 

Logical expectation. But what are the real life specs? There is an interesting question. :) And not an easy one to answer (unless you aren't allowed to talk much about it).

[microvax]

If you're reaching 930kCAS at SL without issues, you're driving an X-15. This is very logical, and the M2K undoubtedly has a posted Vne ... which if I recall is around 750kCAS. WEhen you exceed this, you should be in real danger of losing control surfaces, canopy, or just outright destruction depending on circumstances.

 

No module models this, but it would be nice to see.

 

Yeah, dunno if it was cptsmiley or zeus, but one of them said VNE isnt implemented yet but it will be. Jojo said 750kcas as well, mirage was tested up to 800kcas without problems.

 

I have been runninf from a 27 and 15 with magics only, wasnt able to reach more then 790.

 

Didnt know though that 15 and 27 do not implement it. I mean even Warthunder has its go at it. xD

[lemoen]

It is entirely possible the Mirage as it stands is a bit too fast for one or another reason. I noticed I could get to supersonic speeds at low level without use of the afterburner. The plane was mostly empty. I'm not sure the Mirage 2000 is supposed to be able to supercruise like that.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, dunno if it was cptsmiley or zeus, but one of them said VNE isnt implemented yet but it will be. Jojo said 750kcas as well, mirage was tested up to 800kcas without problems.

 

If the Vne is 750, hitting 800 with 'no problems' was just kind of lucky :)

 

I have been runninf from a 27 and 15 with magics only, wasnt able to reach more then 790.

 

Didnt know though that 15 and 27 do not implement it. I mean even Warthunder has its go at it. xD

 

They do implement some unpleasant effects on the control surfaces, but no damage. The 'shaking' probably induces enough drag to prevent you from going much faster, though you could do so in a dive. :)