RWR update

[acdelta57]

So with the new 1.5.5 update I've noticed some changes to the RWR. Most problems

I'm having I think* is due to user error so I'm not posting in that section. My problem/question is, when the RWR is powered up it is by default not in search mode. No problem, I select search mode and can now see searching radars. However missle launches and spikes are not indicated unless I remove search mode. Example, today with a friend I had him to turn his radar on and I could not see him, hit search and bam there he was. Then I said lock me up, he did, no change to RWR he showed as nails. I removed search mode and then noticed he was now shown as a spike. Also missles launches, while audio is apparent in search mode there is no visual indication unles of course I click again to remove search mode.

I feel that having to toggle between modes is incorrect and I've combed through chucks guide and bellsimtek manual but there is nothing describing procedures to operate the RWR. Any help/info would be appreciated.

 

Also is it for sure true that being hard locked by an enemy air target has NO audio? I find that so strange and contradictory to a RWarningR itself

[Anna]

Can confirm this behavior and was wondering too. The recent change to the RWR forces you to select one of 2 useful modes, while ruling out the other. Seems contadictory to me, as I thought the Search mode just shows everything, while the other only shows priority threats.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Anna

[mattebubben]

It also feel like this way of working is a bit strange =P

 

I can understand having the search contacts off by default (to declutter) but not having the Spikes / launch warnings show up while in search feels like a strange design =P.

 

Since the last thing you want to do when you get a missile launch warning sound is to have to go fiddle with the RWR button to figure out where the missile is coming from.

 

I feel like a Spike or Missile warning should overrule everything else (to the point where possibly it would cause the RWR display to leave search mode).

 

But would be interested to know if anybody know if this is how it should work or not for this RWR system.

 

And the F-5E uses the Same RWR display as the A-10A and A-10C,

(IP-1310/ALR) and they dont work like this ingame

(as far as i know atleast) So what is right and what is wrong?

Or do they have the Same Display but they work differently?

[Schmidtfire]

Around 8:00 we can see the real RWR in action, with the Launch light flickering rapidly in red (and another button below also flickers). Very cool.

It's also worth noting the green flickering symbol happening in the center of the RWR, indicating a lock-on?

Edited November 16, 2016 by Schmidtfire

[cofcorpse]

We understand that it works a bit weird now. We are discussing this mode internally. But it will work the same for a period of time until we have conclusion.

 

As for Launch light/button - it is not operational, such as ACT/PWR button.

 

Sorry for inconvenience!

[NeilWillis]

Thanks for the confirmation cofcorpse.

[Eddie]

With the search emitter filter enabled (button not selected in cockpit l) only TTRs should be displayed, so for example, a Flat Face won't be displayed but a Low Blow would be.

 

With search filter disabled all emmitters indentified and listed in the threat library will be displayed, only unknowns are filtered out. The unknown filter will allow unknown contacts to be displayed when disabled.

 

Air Intercrpt RADARs (including AWACS) are always displayed.

[edineygomes]

We understand that it works a bit weird now. We are discussing this mode internally. But it will work the same for a period of time until we have conclusion.

 

As for Launch light/button - it is not operational, such as ACT/PWR button.

 

Sorry for inconvenience!

 

Is it not operational or will it not be implemented?

[Eddie]

And the F-5E uses the Same RWR display as the A-10A and A-10C,

(IP-1310/ALR) and they dont work like this ingame

(as far as i know atleast) So what is right and what is wrong?

Or do they have the Same Display but they work differently?

 

Not the same RWR system, they all use the same cockpit display (IP-1310) but the RWR system on the F-5E is the AN/ALR-46, the A-10A/C have the AN/ALR-69

 

The current implementation in the F-5 is, while not quite right, more accurate than the A-10C.

[cofcorpse]

Is it not operational or will it not be implemented?

 

Not operational according to our documentation.

[mattebubben]

Not the same RWR system, they all use the same cockpit display (IP-1310) but the RWR system on the F-5E is the AN/ALR-46, the A-10A/C have the AN/ALR-69

 

The current implementation in the F-5 is, while not quite right, more accurate than the A-10C.

 

So the AN/ALR-46 on the F-5E is not capable of monitoring Search and Lock/launch at the same time where as the AN/ALR-69 is?

(since the Displays are the same so the problem cant be there)

Or is the AN/ALR-46 of the F-5E supposed be able to do both at the same time (like the A-10s ingame can).

[Eddie]

So the AN/ALR-46 on the F-5E is not capable of monitoring Search and Lock/launch at the same time where as the AN/ALR-69 is?

(since the Displays are the same so the problem cant be there)

Or is the AN/ALR-46 of the F-5E supposed be able to do both at the same time (like the A-10s ingame can).

 

It can monitor both yes, although that's the wrong way to think about it.

 

All an RWR is is a radio frequency receiver system with multiple antennas. It compares signals it receives with a library of known signatures in order to attempt to classifiy them, then using angle/time of arrival it determines azimuth and (sometimes) elevation, all of which is combined with signal strength in in order to determine the relative priority of a given emitter. Everything is monitored (within a given RWRs frequency range), the only thing that changes is what actually gets displayed to the pilot.

 

What matters most are emitters that can engage you, for the most part, tactical aircraft don't care about others which is why things such as "search" RADARs are filtered out. What is filtered and when, and things like priority logic are all part of the mission data (software) loaded into the RWR, such as the threat library.

 

You might, for example, expect to intially see and unknown emitter, which is then classified over time, and then perhaps filtered out depending on how the system in configured.

 

Another point of note is that the target aquisition RADARs used by SAMs may typically be filtered out as "search" RADARs. Only their TTRs will be displayed unless the search filter is disabled. So which systems like the SA-8, you'd only see them on the RWR if/when they actually start tracking you, or someone near you.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Eddie

[acdelta57]

But the way the F5E RWR is modeled it currently can not monitor both right? Or am I doing something wrong as the user? Also any information on the sound? Should their be an audible lock warning from the AN/ALR 46?

[cofcorpse]

Should their be an audible lock warning from the AN/ALR 46?

 

Currently there is some core limitation that prevents audible lock warning from playing in some cases. We're looking to how to fix this problem.

[acdelta57]

Great! Even as she stands now the F5 is my favorite module. (aside from huey of course) :) The newest addition of wing flex, tho subtle to some players, is a massive immersion element for myself and it is AMAZING! I just can't leave this bird in the hangar ever!

[Beamscanner]

It can monitor both yes, although that's the wrong way to think about it.

 

All an RWR is is a radio frequency receiver system with multiple antennas. It compares signals it receives with a library of known signatures in order to attempt to classifiy them, then using angle/time of arrival it determines azimuth and (sometimes) elevation, all of which is combined with signal strength in in order to determine the relative priority of a given emitter. Everything is monitored (within a given RWRs frequency range), the only thing that changes is what actually gets displayed to the pilot.

 

What matters most are emitters that can engage you, for the most part, tactical aircraft don't care about others which is why things such as "search" RADARs are filtered out. What is filtered and when, and things like priority logic are all part of the mission data (software) loaded into the RWR, such as the threat library.

 

You might, for example, expect to intially see and unknown emitter, which is then classified over time, and then perhaps filtered out depending on how the system in configured.

 

Another point of note is that the target aquisition RADARs used by SAMs may typically be filtered out as "search" RADARs. Only their TTRs will be displayed unless the search filter is disabled. So which systems like the SA-8, you'd only see them on the RWR if/when they actually start tracking you, or someone near you.

 

Most RWRs, especially from that era, dont use time difference of arrival to determine angle. They used amplitude difference between the antennas. Which isn't nearly as accurate, but also not as complex or costly.:)

 

De-selecting 'Search mode' should filter out the target acquisition, early warning, and air surveillance radars. (which are likely associated with a threat system)

 

The reason for this, is that these radars are usually left on for long periods of time (even in peace time), and can clutter the display with emitters that don't necessarily indicate an intent to engage.

 

Im still praying ED comes out with realistic(or pseudo-realistic) Radar audio for the RWRs ingame. The generic beeps currently ingmae do no justice. For those interested, there is a real SA-8 audio file hidden in the DCS folders, so there is hope.

 

Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Sounds\Effects\Aircrafts\Cockpits\RWR

[Eddie]

Yeah, don't see it happening. There is the RAE mod available which adds reasonable audio as well as some minor symbology tweaks.

 

It could be tweaked for the F-5 as well, I may do that once I'm confident the aircraft is in a steady state

[cofcorpse]

But sounds of RWR are accurate. There are four double tones with different frequency and one with seven tones. What do you mean?

[Eddie]

Not an F-5 specific discussion point cofcorpse, it was one regarding aircraft in general, specifically with newer RWR systems such an the AN/ALR-69.

 

Although not having had contact with the AN/ALR-46 I couldn't comment on what audio feedback it has in reality.

[cofcorpse]

I'm sorry. I thought you stated that our sounds are incorrect and I wanted to clear things :thumbup:

[Beamscanner]

I'm sorry. I thought you stated that our sounds are incorrect and I wanted to clear things :thumbup:

 

The majority of the sounds are incorrect..

 

The only sounds that are accurate are the synthetic tones programmed into the RWRs. These usually indicate a new emitter or missile launch.

 

Real RWRs (analog and digital) convert the PRF of a signal (along with the varying amplitude from the radars scan) into a audio tone for the pilot.

 

Nearly all radar models have different PRFs or PRF patterns, and different scans and scan patterns. As such, nearly all of them sound different from one another. Pilots have made use of this for decades now to help recognize specific radars looking their way.

[Eddie]

Indeed, I would be very surprised if the ALR-46 doesn't use emitter specific tones. Another issue encountered yesterday is that there is no audio feedback of a lock.

 

And for other functions is the unknown/ship filter functional, haven't had chance to test it yet bu it is clickable? I need to test the launch warning audio and indicator light as well.

[cofcorpse]

The majority of the sounds are incorrect..

 

And again, I don't understand what do you mean. Are you talking about our specific RWR or about sim on general?

As for our module, it is stated in documentation that we have only 5 tone variants

[Eddie]

He's referring to the F-5 cofcorpse (and every western RWR). The tones you have are correct yes, however what isn't there are the specific emitter tones.one of the primary methods western RWRs use to provide information to the pilot is the audio feedback, specifically that each threat system has a unique audio signature based on the RADAR PRF and other characteristics such that you can identify the threat type without actually looking at the display.

 

Personally I can't say for sure that the ALR-46 has this feature, but I would expect it to.

 

Another note is that there does not appear to be any audio feedback when locked by a threat or when a missile is launched/guidance is in progress, and the launch light also does not illuminate when a RADAR is guiding a weapon.

 

Further to this the unknown/ship filter doesn't appear to be implemented, although it is clickable. I suspect unknown isn't really supported by DCS, however the ship filter should be possible. It works much like the search filter.

 

There are also a couple of cases where SAMs have a extra zero in their symbology. For example, the SA-3 is displayed as "03", rather than just "3"