Pet project

[captain_dalan]

Having a hard time controlling my F-14 cravings this weekend, so made a quick pet project about the F-14A in the DCS. I wanted to further explore the current performance of the bird so a made several missions in which expert level AI pilots run a 10nm neutral merge at 20000ft, armed with nothing but guns and a couple of rear aspect heat seeking missiles. I ran about 2 dozen simulations of F-4's, F-5's, F-15's and Su-27's. I wanted to add the Mirage 2000 in the mix as well, but i can't seam to add missiles to its load. Anyways, in this video i only included (what i thought) were the most closely matched planes. In the case of the Su-27, i had to run both planes clean, as there are no vanilla rear seeking heaters available for the Flankers. Hope you guys enjoy it:

 

 

Have a nice weekend and safe flying! :pilotfly:

 

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[captain_dalan]

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Part 2, F-14A VS the lightweights: F/A-18C, MiG-29A and Mirage 2000C. Fuel quantities tuned to allow same time in burner over fight zone. After both the F-16 and the F-18 under performing in these trials, i think they are not supposed to enter fights with so much fuel still left in them.

 

Edit, does anyone know why the embedded video won't run??

 

[Sryan]

 

 

here ya go bud. in between the [YOUTUBE] brackets, only put in the code that comes after "watch?v=". And don't put links there. you can quote me to see how it's done.

[captain_dalan]

Thanks mate! I owe you one :D

[reyco1987]

No wonder it's so tough to turn fight with the ai. They keep perfect AoA.

[asla36]

No wonder it's so tough to turn fight with the ai. They keep perfect AoA.

Hmm... In my experience flying the little soviet rocket (MiG-21bis) against an AI M-2000c it is easy to beat in a turning contest. Though that may just be because of the superior maneuverability of the older but stronker Stalinium alloy air frame. :D

 

Or it just could be that the auto-pilot AoA limits on the Mirage keep it from turning as tight a the MiG-21bis can riding the stall line. :P

[captain_dalan]

No wonder it's so tough to turn fight with the ai. They keep perfect AoA.

 

It is also their weakness. When i made the mission for the first time, i experimented with the skill level of the AI pilots. As you raise the skill, you see a constant increase in tendency to fly that "perfect" corner. However, as you can see in some of the videos, there are times when you might want to extend so you can bleed later on, and increase your average rate. Especially in a Mirage or other deltas. But no, the AI will fly itself into the weeds trying to get its nose at you at all costs....even mid airing with you.

 

Hmm... In my experience flying the little soviet rocket (MiG-21bis) against an AI M-2000c it is easy to beat in a turning contest. Though that may just be because of the superior maneuverability of the older but stronker Stalinium alloy air frame. :D

 

Or it just could be that the auto-pilot AoA limits on the Mirage keep it from turning as tight a the MiG-21bis can riding the stall line. :P

 

You gave me an idea, i will try to pit the older gen fighters (F-4, F-5. MiG-21) against the 4th gen and see how the AI handles them.

 

I've noticed the Mirage to also under perform when i fly against an AI that controls it. Have you tried the opposite? You in the M2000 against the MiG?

[asla36]

It is also their weakness. When i made the mission for the first time, i experimented with the skill level of the AI pilots. As you raise the skill, you see a constant increase in tendency to fly that "perfect" corner. However, as you can see in some of the videos, there are times when you might want to extend so you can bleed later on, and increase your average rate. Especially in a Mirage or other deltas. But no, the AI will fly itself into the weeds trying to get its nose at you at all costs....even mid airing with you.

 

 

 

You gave me an idea, i will try to pit the older gen fighters (F-4, F-5. MiG-21) against the 4th gen and see how the AI handles them.

 

I've noticed the Mirage to also under perform when i fly against an AI that controls it. Have you tried the opposite? You in the M2000 against the MiG?

Will do!

[asla36]

Ok, it has better instant turn than the MiG-21bis but "bleeds energy out of it's arse".

 

And sustained turn relies on you being able to sustain corner speed, AoA and G's. :)

[Home Fries]

What was the AI level of the Hornet in the first engagement of the first video? I can't believe it went vertical as an opening move when it should have sliced and used its radius advantage. By going vertical it played the Tomcat's game and gave the Tomcat the turning room that the Tom was able to exploit.

[captain_dalan]

Ok, it has better instant turn than the MiG-21bis but "bleeds energy out of it's arse".

 

And sustained turn relies on you being able to sustain corner speed, AoA and G's. :)

 

Yeah, i don't have the MiG-21, by i flew against the F-5. I found my self floating at 150KIAS in no more then 4 passes. It takes a lot of stick discipline to keep the 2000 fast.

 

What was the AI level of the Hornet in the first engagement of the first video? I can't believe it went vertical as an opening move when it should have sliced and used its radius advantage. By going vertical it played the Tomcat's game and gave the Tomcat the turning room that the Tom was able to exploit.

 

I set all the AI to excellent . The thing is, the AI always goes for the vertical at the merge, especially on higher difficulty. No matter what plane it controls and no matter what it is up against. Maybe because both planes are AI, so it boils down to a mirror match (of some sort).

 

I think the main reason why the 16 and the 18 didn't do well, was the fuel state. I made sure in all the matches all planes had roughly the same time in burner, but it made some of them fly will full tanks, something that is almost never a good thing to carry with you into battle. I mean the Hornet was up at the merge with essentially 80% internal fuel, the Viper with 85%.

 

Maybe i should give them closer to 55-60% internal fuel and then lower the big planes fuel to match. Or just leave them at 10500lbs. I haven't decided yet.

[captain_dalan]

 

Maybe i should give them closer to 55-60% internal fuel and then lower the big planes fuel to match. Or just leave them at 10500lbs. I haven't decided yet.

 

By going vertical it played the Tomcat's game and gave the Tomcat the turning room that the Tom was able to exploit.

 

Just ran 3 simulations. This time the Bug was at 6500lbs (60%). Much more equal match. The F-14 still starts at some turning advantage, but as the fuel burns out, the Hornet comes on its own and if the fight stays high enough, it will eventually go on the Tomcat's six (hop#1). If the fight goes low too soon though (hop#2), the Tomcat still exploits its vertical advantage and rolling-skissors on the Bug's tail. Hop#3 lasted long enough before it ended low, but the Bug to run out of fuel. Still, it could have gone either way.

[BlackLion213]

Great stuff Captain!

 

It is interesting to know that the skill of the AI only seems to effect aircraft handling instead of a change in tactics.

 

-Nick

[captain_dalan]

Great stuff Captain!

 

It is interesting to know that the skill of the AI only seems to effect aircraft handling instead of a change in tactics.

 

-Nick

 

Thanks mate! I think i know why. I've done several more iterations, experimenting with the starting position and altitude. Among others, i've done the standard FWS abreast merge and in this case, instead of going vertical the AI always goes horizontal. So the AI always actually flies vector on bandit and when possible a lead pursuit. This also supports all those midairs when the both platforms are tightly matched.

 

Anyways, just my 2 cents for the weekend

Cheers all and safe flying

[asla36]

Yeah, i don't have the MiG-21, by i flew against the F-5. I found my self floating at 150KIAS in no more then 4 passes. It takes a lot of stick discipline to keep the 2000 fast.

The MiG-21bis sorta gets the advantage here because if you pull stick full back, you're gonna stall... And oh does the MiG-21bis not behave in a stall, well it actually sorta does. You see a stall with high stick deflection in a MiG-21bis takes it's time in moving the nose (which is why you get the instinct to re-center the stick the moment your aircraft starts to turn slower in a tight turn). After let's say 1 or 2 seconds you start hearing really scary noises as the AoA increases, the plane slows, but the nose doesn't move anywhere. And then you just drop... And drop... And really start regretting not re-centering the stick fast enough...

 

Now at low altitudes that "nose up drop" is a death sentence because you need a lot of altitude with the stick centered to regain control. And if you keep that nose up, you ded.

 

Now after one time of that "DCS: horror story" you quickly learn to "ride the yellow". Which allows you to turn quick for what is practically an unlimited time in a fight (as long as you have fuel). :D

[asla36]

Fighting at 12 AoA...

That AI patience is admirable.

 

Cap, can you make a Flogger-Tommy match?

See how the swing-wings match!?!?

Sadly there's indeed a catch...

As of the current patch,

Both models are quite ugly.

And for a chance I would pay fondly,

To learn these magnificent birds.

As for now, I only have words.

 

So please as is coming the Tommy,

Not getting the MiG is not that funny! >:[

 

That went from commenting about the AI, to wishing for a video, and then wishing for the MiG-23! :D

[captain_dalan]

... After let's say 1 or 2 seconds you start hearing really scary noises as the AoA increases, the plane slows, but the nose doesn't move anywhere. And then you just drop... And drop... And really start regretting not re-centering the stick fast enough...

 

Now at low altitudes that "nose up drop" is a death sentence because you need a lot of altitude with the stick centered to regain control. And if you keep that nose up, you ded.

 

 

Well....at least it doesn't do a spontaneous nose up flip, a flat spin or some other nasty devilry :joystick:

But i would definitely want to try it one day, preferably against an F-4J, and then doing it the other way around :pilotfly:

 

Fighting at 12 AoA...

 

Mhm, i would guess it tries to keep an optimum lift to frag ratio. The funny thing is, having looked at the lift and drag quotients for sweep angles of 22, 50 something and 68 degrees i am not sure 12 is always the best. Maybe at 22, but i'm not sure, i'll have to check it out, it's been a while. Besides, when i look at the fight from say a Flanker perspective, i do see a bit more varied and dynamic AoA distribution. Maybe it's the flight model, after all the F-14A is not modeled nearly in as much detail as the Su-27.

 

On another note, i also get the impression the current flight model is for a hard winged in F-14. The pitch capability seams fairly close to what i'd expect at the given loads and altitudes, but the sustained turning rage, especially in the 250-360KIAS seams a bit off. Again, i'll have to run more simulations to be sure, especially at lower altitudes.

 

 

That AI patience is admirable.

 

Cap, can you make a Flogger-Tommy match?

See how the swing-wings match!?!?

Sadly there's indeed a catch...

As of the current patch,

Both models are quite ugly.

 

Sure thing mate :thumbup:

I'll be on it as soon as i finish typing this. Compressing the video and uploading it might take a while though.

[asla36]

Well....at least it doesn't do a spontaneous nose up flip, a flat spin or some other nasty devilry :joystick:

But i would definitely want to try it one day, preferably against an F-4J, and then doing it the other way around :pilotfly:

 

Sure thing mate :thumbup:

I'll be on it as soon as i finish typing this. Compressing the video and uploading it might take a while though.

 

Yeah, that's the thing with it performing horribly/nicely in a stall. Though for a new player it offers it's very own devilish trap. After all if you start to all of a sudden turn slower in a turn-fight the instinctive reflex is to increase back-pressure.

 

Thank you for that! :D

[captain_dalan]

 

There it is. MiG-23MLD VS F-14A. Two hops, 20000ft neutral merge and 200ft neutral merge. The low altitude seams to help the MiG a bit, but there just isn't enough lift or sustained ability to counter the Turkey in a straight up fight.

[asla36]

 

There it is. MiG-23MLD VS F-14A. Two hops, 20000ft neutral merge and 200ft neutral merge. The low altitude seams to help the MiG a bit, but there just isn't enough lift or sustained ability to counter the Turkey in a straight up fight.

Thank you so much for making it! And that's why you have terrain masking with IRST+IR-MRM/SRM. :D

 

I wonder how are the AIM-54's going to be effected by notching/nap of the Earth flying? After all it's attack profile (theoretically) makes notching much easier with it's range increasing climb. Putting itself in a position where ground clutter is going to be maximal. Welp, I don't think players will find much use in purely the AIM-54 against fighters other that spamming it at range and then making a run for it. But it will be a massive help putting the enemy in a position of massive stress at the beginning of a BVR engagement.

 

So they will be lower on energy and your sparrows can finish the job. Or if the MISSiles are gonna miss go in for the dogfight. As the turkey seems to be mighty good at those! :thumbup:

[asla36]

Also is there something i'm missing? Because engine No. 2 is being pretty lazy in it's afterburner usage! >:[

 

Or just due to the lackluster modelling, after all it's a placeholder. But that begs the question, is the MiG-23MLD model as well...

 

I would sure like to see the MiG-23MLD model be a placeholder in exactly the same way! :D

 

Getting my hopes aside here's the place to walk the Turkey walk, and talk the Turkey talk.

[captain_dalan]

Also is there something i'm missing? Because engine No. 2 is being pretty lazy in it's afterburner usage! >:[

 

Or just due to the lackluster modelling, after all it's a placeholder. But that begs the question, is the MiG-23MLD model as well...

 

I would sure like to see the MiG-23MLD model be a placeholder in exactly the same way! :D

 

Getting my hopes aside here's the place to walk the Turkey walk, and talk the Turkey talk.

 

I think it's just the model. We'll have to wait for the real thing a while yet. You can actually count the polys on this one from a medium zoom.

[BlackLion213]

I wonder how are the AIM-54's going to be effected by notching/nap of the Earth flying? After all it's attack profile (theoretically) makes notching much easier with it's range increasing climb. Putting itself in a position where ground clutter is going to be maximal. Welp, I don't think players will find much use in purely the AIM-54 against fighters other that spamming it at range and then making a run for it. But it will be a massive help putting the enemy in a position of massive stress at the beginning of a BVR engagement.

 

The AIM-54 and AWG-9 were both fairly susceptible to notching and ground clutter, consistent with an earlier generation RADAR with analog signal processing.

 

Also, the AIM-54 does not necessarily use a lofting flight profile, that is just for long-range shots. When engaging fighters, AIM-54 shots were expected to take place at more of a medium range (figure ~30 nm), which isn't medium range for other available missiles. :)

 

These medium range shots would have a direct flight profile like this:

 

 

It is hard to know how the AIM-54 will do against fighters, we'll have to see how things shake out once the F-14 is released. That said, it does have some tricks up it sleeves. People tend to think about the range, but the real asset is the fact that it is one of very few ARH missiles in DCS. It also has a warhead larger than that of a SA-6 SAM, excellent ECM resistance in the AIM-54C, and novel guidance techniques - namely datalink guidance or boresight launches at ~10+ nm (so no AWG-9 emissions or launch warnings).

 

It will be interesting to see how it all works about. :)

 

-Nick

Edited May 8, 2017 by BlackLion213

[Wizard_03]

Nice post BlackLion!

 

btw semi OT does anyone know if Heatblur plans on doing both AIM-54A and C versions. I'm interested in seeing the ECM and decoy rejection performance in the C and how it compares to the 120 and Aim-54A in game.

 

I know a good slug of that is conjecture at best in the sim. But I'd been nice to see how they model it.

[asla36]

The AIM-54 and AWG-9 were both fairly susceptible to notching and ground clutter, consistent with an earlier generation RADAR with analog signal processing.

 

Also, the AIM-54 does not necessarily use a lofting flight profile, that is just for long-range shots. When engaging fighters, AIM-54 shots were expected to take place at more of a medium range (figure ~30 nm), which isn't medium range for other available missiles. :)

 

These medium range shots would have a direct flight profile like this:

 

 

It is hard to know how the AIM-54 will do against fighters, we'll have to see how things shake out once the F-14 is released. That said, it does have some tricks up it sleeves. People tend to think about the range, but the real asset is the fact that it is one of very few ARH missiles in DCS. It also has a warhead larger than that of a SA-6 SAM, excellent ECM resistance in the AIM-54C, and novel guidance techniques - namely datalink guidance or boresight launches at ~10+ nm (so no AWG-9 emissions or launch warnings).

 

It will be interesting to see how it all works about. :)

 

-Nick

Thanks for clearing that up! Do you also have info about the range it goes "Pitbull"? It is certainly going to be a heck of a blast learning the AWG-9 operation and target engagement! :D