TWS

[Alfa]

The question was 'how many targets can be simultaneously attacked with AMRAAMs'

 

Formulating the question in that way would exactly leave room for the interpretation I mentioned - i.e. if the targets are within seeker range of the ARH missiles, the only limitation would be the number of targets for which the WCS has collected launch parameters.....AFAIK this number is 8 for the AN/APG-63.

 

But this does not necessarily mean that the WCS can guide missiles towards all 8.....i.e. control them all after launch. AFAIK APG-63 and APG-65 radars already had the ability to "stack" multiple targets in TWS before the advent of the AMRAAM in order to aide the pilot in prioritising them and avoid having to wait for the system to gather "weapons grade" data when switching from one to another....even though only a single one at a time could be engaged with the AIM-7 via STT mode.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yeah I see what you mean - but to be honest, you think would be better off googling on the real Russian designations if you want to find the more "authoritative" sources(manufacture sites)......because these rarely refer to the NATO designations ;) .

 

I agree, and I guess I didn't communicate what I meant. I am adding the NATO designations, but even the Russian designations are all screwed up due to translation errors (which I'll be correcting). For example, the search radar for the S-300 is a 64N6E in English, not 64H6E like the way its listed in the game. The same goes for its tracking radar, it is a 40V6M in English, not a 40B6M. :smilewink:

[Starlight]

Can i ask the maximum number of radar returns that may be simultaneoulsy engaged in TWS?

 

 

col

 

TWS means track-while-scan, so this is a search/track function of the radar. Engaging a target (i.e. launching and guiding missiles) is a different matter. Many aircraft can actually track a lot of aircraft but engage single targets. The feature you mean is more likely the multi-target engagement capabilty. That seems to be 4 in the F-15 in Lomac, but I'm not sure.

 

One of the best results in aviation history was the old AWG-9 of the Tomcat, and its evolution, the APG-71 which could track 24 targets and prioritize and engage up to six of them.

 

AWACS aircraft could obviously track hundreds of targets in TWS mode, but they don't have any engagement capability (except for self-defense IR-missiles, but I don't think AWACS ever carried such weapons outside trials)

[Alfa]

I agree, and I guess I didn't communicate what I meant. I am adding the NATO designations, but even the Russian designations are all screwed up due to translation errors (which I'll be correcting). For example, the search radar for the S-300 is a 64N6E in English, not 64H6E like the way its listed in the game. The same goes for its tracking radar, it is a 40V6M in English, not a 40B6M. :smilewink:

 

Ahh ok - yes you are right :) . Just be careful to correct those designations only for the *display names* in the Meinit - the references to 3D models need to be retained....otherwise you will have problems ;) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The basic APG-63 wich is simulated on LOMAC can only engage 4.

What is a “Basic APG-63”? Lock On does not simulate first generation F-15C’s because those were not able to use AIM-120. By “basic” do you mean original APG-63 as on F-15A’s (year 1974) and F-15C’s (year 1979)?

[GGTharos]

Sorry Alfa, I disagree with you all the way there.

The APG-63(v)1 will provide datalink channels for eight missiles in flight against 8 separate targets. This is a programmable capability.

 

Hajduk, the Basic APG-63 (ie. not the v1 upgrade) is the one the F-15C was built with and still had when the AMRAAM was introduced. v1 is being retrofitted in 2005 IIRC. ;)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Hajduk, the Basic APG-63 (ie. not the v1 upgrade) is the one the F-15C was built with and still had when the AMRAAM was introduced.

Well, here’s the quote:

 

Quote:

“MSIP II (Multiple Stage Improvement Program II) …

… and adding support for the AIM-120 AMRAAM. Subsequent MSIP II provisions also included the installation of an updated APG-63(V)I radar to replace outmoded APG-63 sets in F-15 C/D aircraft.” End of quote.

Pages 56 and 57 of the Combat Legend F-15 Eagle and Strike Eagle by Steve Davies.

 

So, original F-15C’s were not able to fire AMRAAM. We don’t really know what they did to a radar during MSIP II prior to MSIP II APG-63(V)I. However we know that F-15C’s prior to MSIP II were not able to use AMRAAM’s.

 

That also means that Lock On models F-15C’s with MSIP II after 1985. I really wonder how did the TWS work with original APG-63?

[fulcrum251]

Russian sub-versions of weapon are very many.I think Mig-29C in LOMAC is only Mig-29A but it can lauch R-77.It can only attack a target in one time.

[Pilotasso]

What is a “Basic APG-63”? Lock On does not simulate first generation F-15C’s because those were not able to use AIM-120. By “basic” do you mean original APG-63 as on F-15A’s (year 1974) and F-15C’s (year 1979)?

Well, here’s the quote:

 

Quote:

“MSIP II (Multiple Stage Improvement Program II) …

… and adding support for the AIM-120 AMRAAM. Subsequent MSIP II provisions also included the installation of an updated APG-63(V)I radar to replace outmoded APG-63 sets in F-15 C/D aircraft.” End of quote.

Pages 56 and 57 of the Combat Legend F-15 Eagle and Strike Eagle by Steve Davies.

 

So, original F-15C’s were not able to fire AMRAAM. We don’t really know what they did to a radar during MSIP II prior to MSIP II APG-63(V)I. However we know that F-15C’s prior to MSIP II were not able to use AMRAAM’s.

 

Sorry but your assumptions are wrong.

 

There were minor updates in late 70's and mid 80's , but that didnt earn the APG-63 designation change.

 

There were AMRAAM's being test fired from F-15's in 1981, so yes the APG-63 was already compatible with it very early on. The AMRAAM was scheduled to enter service in 1986 but there were issues with the missiles logic and vibrations and test firing had to be prelonged to early 1991.

 

If you wish I can post some quotes of a book to show you.

 

All my books reffer to 4 TWS silmultaneously engagements for the basic APG-63, I dont think it would be very usefull in LOMAC to make it to 8 because AMRAAM has just a too low PK in this SIM to make 8 Missile shots stand a chance anyway. 4 Just fine and I rarely even go as far as attacking 2. I doubt that in BS improvements to AMRAAM's will change this much, except maybe improve the usefullness to attack 3 or 4 but never 8.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Sorry but your assumptions are wrong.

I was quoting the book.

 

There were minor updates in late 70's and mid 80's , but that didnt earn the APG-63 designation change.

What was the updates names and what do you mean by minor? The first F-15C become operational in 1979. What was modified on F-15C’s in late 70’s?

 

The first completed MSIP II F-15C entered service in June of 1985.

 

There were AMRAAM's being test fired from F-15's in 1981, so yes the APG-63 was already compatible with it very early on.

I am not talking about tests. I am talking about actual service use. Many things have been tested successfully but never entered service.

 

If you wish I can post some quotes of a book to show you.

I certainly would like to see quotes with the author’s names.

 

All my books reffer to 4 TWS silmultaneously engagements for the basic APG-63, …

What is basic APG-63? AMRAAM was not operational before MSIP II was it?

[S77th-GOYA]

Hajduk, the Basic APG-63 (ie. not the v1 upgrade) is the one the F-15C was built with and still had when the AMRAAM was introduced. v1 is being retrofitted in 2005 IIRC. ;)

 

v1 was introduced in the '90s. There are still some vanilla APG-63s in service, however. Probably the biggest upgrade on the vanilla was the PSP which enabled it to be modified to accommodate new modes and weapons through software rather than by hardware.

[Pilotasso]

I was quoting the book.

 

What was the updates names and what do you mean by minor? The first F-15C become operational in 1979. What was modified on F-15C’s in late 70’s?

 

Memory processor and software updates. None of wich required more than the replacement of the respective module, not the radar itself wich remained the same. Donne to F-15A's as well.

See picture 1.

 

I am not talking about tests. I am talking about actual service use.

 

 

Thats irrelevant, if the planes APG-63 were compatible with it beore service they were also compatible by service entry. Even APG-66's in f-16's were in early 80s as you can see on pic 2.

 

The first completed MSIP II F-15C entered service in June of 1985.

 

I am not talking about tests. I am talking about actual service use. Many things have been tested successfully but never entered service.

 

If you think MSIPII was strictly necessary to carry the AMRAAM then 1985 is just fine if AMRAAM entered service by 1991, this results in 2 things for the game: that the AMRAAM is correctly chosen to be ingame and that if anything the F-15's radar should be upgraded. :)

[GGTharos]

v1 was introduced in the '90s. There are still some vanilla APG-63s in service, however. Probably the biggest upgrade on the vanilla was the PSP which enabled it to be modified to accommodate new modes and weapons through software rather than by hardware.

 

IIRC it was merely engineered/tested in the 90's. Mass upgrades of aircraft didn't start until 2000 - but just IIRC.

[Force_Feedback]

Just a sidenote, what is a 30 MKz, Miraclez or something? 30 miracles per second. :P

 

Quite fast for a '81 piece of cpu. Not that I'm wanting to start the 'civillian computer hardware is faster than military' crap, because everybody who has even tried to smash a Mi-24P 'piece of hardware' knows that military hardware is made for durability, and not plain processing power. On the other hand, the electronics that were inside of it were comparable to a late eighties/early 90-ies transistor radio (paper condensers, quite sparse use of ICs, and 2-3cm databus connectors).

[GGTharos]

It is some sort of measurement used in RF applications ... I don't know what it means but it is legit.

[nscode]

Wonder if they ever tried to overclock them :D

[GGTharos]

Dunno, might need some extra 120mm fans or liquid cooling ... oh look, nitrogen bottles ... :D

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Oh, boy! Here we go again. Where should I start … :(

 

Memory processor and software updates.

Why was this update needed? Memory processor, what are you talking about?

 

None of wich required more than the replacement of the respective module, not the radar itself wich remained the same.

So what is radar? “Module” is not an integral part of a radar?

 

Thats irrelevant, if the planes APG-63 were compatible with it beore service they were also compatible by service entry.

It is relevant because they were not. And I provided a quote from the book stating that original APG-63 needed upgrade for the AMRAAM.

 

Even APG-66's in f-16's were in early 80s as you can see on pic 2.

I don’t have any books about APG-66 and will not comment on it.

 

If you think MSIPII was strictly necessary to carry the AMRAAM …

MSIP II was needed on F-15A/B and early F-15C’s to be able to use AMRAAM. Meaning that original APG-63 had to be upgraded for ARH capability.

 

...then 1985 is just fine if AMRAAM entered service by 1991, this results in 2 things for the game: that the AMRAAM is correctly chosen to be ingame and that if anything the F-15's radar should be upgraded. :)

Why did ED decided to provide updated F-15C’s and plain, vanilla Su-27’s that I don’t know.

[D-Scythe]

Let's get a few things straight:

 

- There is NO such thing as an MSIP II F-15A/B - the MSIP II program was ONLY for the F-15C/D

- MSIP I was used for the F-15A, that enabled it to fire AMRAAM; however, it retained the SAME APG-63 radar

- The MSIP programs were implemented in the mid-1980s; which allowed all F-15s to fire the AIM-120 - however, only the F-15C was updated with the new APG-70 radar (so yes, by the time the Su-27 was JUST entering service, AMRAAM-capable F-15s were doing the same)